Tien Chi Conscription

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Zen:
IW has a good tract record for trying to fix things; whether or not they think all suggestions are warranted is another matter entirely. I couldn’t say that any or all of the suggestions people give would even get the attention the original poster desires, but if you provide a good argument it would be hard to imagine they wouldn’t.

Yes. What I *meant* to say, of course, is that they give *good* suggestions (i.e. well-defended, non-earthshattering, balanced ones) consideration. At least that is the way it appears to me.

Originally posted by PvK:
What you say makes perfect sense, on that topic. This thread was about the detail of Conscription, though, rather than overall TC balance. If that's lacking, it would be more important.

Yes, I understand what the thread is about , but if suggested changes are given for one aspect then those changes, at least in part, affect the balance of the nation. Imagine Conscription given to Pythium or Arco, in it's current form it wouldn't do much at all. But if it was improved to the point where it was either 'good enough to be noticed' or 'by the definition of the word' then that would place Pythium or Arco even more above most other nations. Just imagine Jotun with Conscription.

Tien Chi commanders aren't technically the only ones who suffer speed 1 strategic. (Ulmish Guardian commanders, maybe Arco hoplite commanders (?) ... ) But ya it would be good to know IW's reason for this, or else perhaps to change it.

I had forgotten about the Guardian Commander (more than likely because I never use him). The Lord Warden is another, though he has stealth and it doesn't really work against him. Though I think the reason he is Movement 1 is because of his armor. Hoplite Commanders move at 2, same as Machaka Commander.

For Tien Ch'i: the Eunuch, the Ceremonial Master, Minister of Rituals, and Celestial Master all have Movement 1.

I believe the reason/why for it is because common knowledge of the era had most dignitaries and ceremonial leaders traveled with a retinue of servants, slaves, etc. And so that is represented by them losing movement.

In game however, it makes a huge difference having the greater portion of your commanders regulated to 1 movement.

Tien Chi AI came and steamrollered my Arco when I was trying to build up a Natajara SC. They had over a dozen celestial giants of some sort which were quite hard to deal with. Just one example, and it sounds like it may be atypical.

Yes, Celestial Soldiers are very nice. They are fairly pricy (4 Air Gems per Soldier - 20 Air Gems to cast the spell).

If they had 15 that would be summons worth 60 Air Gems, quite a healthy chunk. I'd hope they would be decent enough to make you think twice for that cost

[ February 16, 2004, 04:37: Message edited by: Zen ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by Zen:
... Yes, I understand what the thread is about , but if suggested changes are given for one aspect then those changes, at least in part, affect the balance of the nation.

Yes, quite so.

Imagine Conscription given to Pythium or Arco, in it's current form it wouldn't do much at all. But if it was improved to the point where it was either 'good enough to be noticed' or 'by the definition of the word' then that would place Pythium or Arco even more above most other nations. Just imagine Jotun with Conscription.

Jotun with conscription would still only have meaningful effect if it were on an accelerated scale, such as Peter suggested. As it is, a couple of points after 10-20 turns, with a max level of about 6, isn't even particularly noticable for Jotunheim, because the gold cost of them buying the same thing manually is very very low, and it only happens if you don't buy it above 5 anyway, and with Jotunheim, buying 5-20 defense is often worth the price. Tempting the J player to not buy any defense in the hope of saving a very few pennies is more likely to just get players to neglect defense hoping for insignifigant savings.

... I had forgotten about the Guardian Commander (more than likely because I never use him).

Before the Last patch, some/all of the other Ulmish commanders had move 1 too, but they changed that in the patch. Now even Ulm's Full Plate commanders with tower shields march 2, while the Guardian marches 1.

The Lord Warden is another, though he has stealth and it doesn't really work against him. Though I think the reason he is Movement 1 is because of his armor.

It'd be interesting to know IW's reasons for choosing certain movement rates. My assumption has been that it has something to do with the use of beasts, physical condition, and/or travel habits.

...
For Tien Ch'i: the Eunuch, the Ceremonial Master, Minister of Rituals, and Celestial Master all have Movement 1.

I believe the reason/why for it is because common knowledge of the era had most dignitaries and ceremonial leaders traveled with a retinue of servants, slaves, etc. And so that is represented by them losing movement.

In game however, it makes a huge difference having the greater portion of your commanders regulated to 1 movement.

Yeah, hmm. If there is a meaningful thematic reason, it might be better to balance them in other ways than un-doing something that has a reason.

PvK

[Arryn]

Originally posted by PvK:
As it is, a couple of points after 10-20 turns, with a max level of about 6 ...

Boys, how many times do I need to repeat that this is simply not true? I have savegame files with conscriptions at 13+ (I bought PD to 10, and the freebies built on top of that).

Originally posted by PvK:
Jotun with conscription would still only have meaningful effect if it were on an accelerated scale, such as Peter suggested. As it is, a couple of points after 10-20 turns, with a max level of about 6, isn't even particularly noticable for Jotunheim, because the gold cost of them buying the same thing manually is very very low, and it only happens if you don't buy it above 5 anyway, and with Jotunheim, buying 5-20 defense is often worth the price. Tempting the J player to not buy any defense in the hope of saving a very few pennies is more likely to just get players to neglect defense hoping for insignifigant savings.

Yes, so that is why if you change it so that it has a meaninful impact on your nation (as Peter suggests, which if it's not apparent, I believe is a good idea) then it would affect the balance of the nation. The most meaningful impact I could think of was Jotun who has great PD. So as you can see if it is adjusted, it would affect the balance of the nation.

Yeah, hmm. If there is a meaningful thematic reason, it might be better to balance them in other ways than un-doing something that has a reason.

PvK

Yes, I agree. That is why I said either give them movement 2, or adjust their statistics or the commander in some way to make up for it. Such as, if each of those is slow because of their retinue, when they are in combat give them some sort of inherent bodyguards or something similiar to fit the theme while not unbalancing it.

[Kristoffer O]

Hmm, too many Posts to answer in any meaningful way.

Peter has a most valid piont. Visibility. Can't remember his other pionts now but they were good as well. What players percieve will change what they feel about the game. In dominions 1 the curse didn't work for a year or so but there was much complaints and demands that we make the curse less powerful If you do not percieve an effect on the conscription it is not fun even if thematic. I do not think it is fun as it is.

I'm not satisfied with the current workings on the conscription. An early Version was clearly overpowered. We did not want to waste time on the conscription at that time, about to release the game and all.

It will probably be remade, if I remember. As I rarely notice it, I tend to forget about it

[Kristoffer O]

Lore Warden should probably have 2 strat move. Most leaders have 2. Only crippled old men and other inefficient commanders have 1.