What role does a shield play?

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Joonie73:
The Japanese used shields. What are you talking about?

You fool! What you saw were samurai spinning their swords so fast that they merely appeared to be large round shields!

And besides, there is no honor in hiding behind a shield

Seriously, though - I've never seen a Japanese shield, and I've seen lots of Japanese armor. I cannot say for certain that such things never existed, but I've never seen any evidence of them... most shields did not tend to be as durable as body armor or helmets (shields had a lower proportion of metal) so they didn't survive as well, and so, maybe in ancient history there were wooden Japanese shields that have since decayed... but I've never seen them in books, paintings, or any other art either...

[Jader]

Don't you think it's because katana is a two handed sword...

Actually they used shields called "tate" as protection from arrows or spears. And sometimes they used a "sode" (the piece of armor worn on the shoulder) which samurai could untie and use like buckler for deflecting arrows.

[Arralen]

... but they didn't have that much use for shields because they didn't have massed archers/slingers like all armies west of them had.

By the way, the Katana is a 1-hand sword which could be used with both hands.
It's on the upper end (max. 1,1m) of the length scale for 1-handed swords (0,7..1,1m), but superior balancing makes single handed usage very easy.

The older Tachi is up to 1,4m long, 2-handed and was used from horse-back at the time of the mongol invasion. At which point it served pourly, as the tips regularly broke off when a fighter hit a mongol armor with it. (felt, sometimes reinforced with "Couir bouillie"/"cuir bouilli" sp?, chain mail). Subsequently the swords got shorter (shortened) and developed to the Katana/Wakizasi - kombo.

Everything AFAIK, of course.

A.

[ December 03, 2003, 11:42: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Jader:
Don't you think it's because katana is a two handed sword...

That would be a No-Dachi, IIRC. A Katana is easily useable in one hand (better reach, from horseback, etc.); it's two handed use is a matter of style.

Actually they used shields called "tate" as protection from arrows or spears. And sometimes they used a "sode" (the piece of armor worn on the shoulder) which samurai could untie and use like buckler for deflecting arrows.

I'm having a hard time finding a reference to a "Tate" outside of Anime, no doubt because it also seems to be a common English name.

Perhaps you could provide a link or source? I'd dearly love to see a picture!

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Arralen:
... but they didn't have that much use for shields because they didn't have massed archers/slingers like all armies west of them had.

Army lists give them high proportions of Longbow armed Samurai in the early Samurai period. The lack of shields, given influence from China, is very odd. Explanations could include their armour being exceptionally effective against missile, the bow commonly used being not as good as it is generally rated, and that the focus on individual combat made shields less effective as they require a degree of discipline and formation tog et the full benifit.

Cheers

Keir

[PvK]

Yes the early main weapon was the bow, not the katana, and heavy use of bows continued, perhaps moreso than in many western ancient/medieval armies. Late medieval Japanese armor does seem to have been relatively effective against arrows, judging from the number of arrows frequently shown sticking out of still-fighting samurai in art (and samurai films such as the Last scene of Throne of Blood). Post-gunpowder, some breastplates were tested to be sure they were proof against muskets, though I think they still were only a part of the torso coverage, with plenty of places still to get hurt.

Later samurai equipped for battle would also tend to carry a naginata as the first weapon, which is a two-hander.

Although they did have some shields, perhaps like their sword style, they tended to emphasize avoiding arrow hits, rather than blocking them.

PvK

[Jader]

Now, as I think about it, "tate" seams just means "shield" in japanese It's hard to find any evidenve of it's existence indeed. Look at this:
http://cis.k.hosei.ac.jp/~F-rep/Haniwa_EGUK2002.pdf

I'm not convinced about katana - it's described as "one and half handed" (like broad sword) and IMO it was mostly used with both hands. Look at today's martial arts like kendo - main arm moves the sword and the hand of the secondary drives it.
One handed use don't let for finese technique (with such heavy weapon) and have sense only with second blade for parrying (and then there is no need for shield).

[Jasper]

Originally posted by PvK:
Late medieval Japanese armor does seem to have been relatively effective against arrows, judging from the number of arrows frequently shown sticking out of still-fighting samurai in art (and samurai films such as the Last scene of Throne of Blood).

Good point. I'd always assumed they were able to take so many arrows because of their funky poses and crazy expressions.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Jader:
I'm not convinced about katana - it's described as "one and half handed" (like broad sword) and IMO it was mostly used with both hands. Look at today's martial arts like kendo - main arm moves the sword and the hand of the secondary drives it.
One handed use don't let for finese technique (with such heavy weapon) and have sense only with second blade for parrying (and then there is no need for shield).

One handed use is still taught, even though primary duelling (e.g. kendo) usage is 2 handed. You do get extra reach one handed, can wield another weapon in the off hand (an uncommon but real style, especially if outnumbered), and one handed obviously makes more sense on horseback.

Such blades are nicely balanced, and easier to use one handed than European Hand and a Half Sword (which is a Bastard Sword, not a Broad Sword).

[Arralen]

Shields
"Sode (Shoulder Armor)
The sode were pieces of armor that protected the warrior's shoulders. Early samurai warfare consisted predominately of mounted archery, and therefore it seems that the sode were first developed out of need to provide the mounted warrior with a type of shield, that would allow him to have both his hands free for rider the horse and firing the bow. The sode used in the earlier Kamakura period (1185 - 1333) were much larger than those produced in the Warring Sates period (1477-1603); this was largely due to the improvements in the developments of the kote (armored sleeves) and do (body armor)."
http://www.geocities.com/bushiminiat...ponsarmor.html

Bows / Archery
The bows are quite impressive, as is the archery. But it's subject to the same individualism that all japanes combat in that period shows.
There where great numbers of bow-toting samurai, no question.
But they didn't fire as massed archers with high, ballistic trajectory like e.g. the english longbows did.

But shield are more or less useless against low-trajectory, high-speed arrow which are actually aimed at uncovered areas. Either the target spots the arrow and can step aside etc., or it doesn't and cannot block with the shield either.


Katana
These swords aren't heavier than their european 1,5-hand counterparts. Maybe even lighter, but "statistically relevant" data is hard to come by. However, they are easily wielded with one hand, as the curved blade puts the C.G. back from the edge and more above the hand.
While swinging the blade is held much more upright, so that e.g. you could stop a blow just halfway through without the blade "dangeling around", as the force is projeted straightly to the hand below. With a european-type straight sword, the C.G. would be well outside the hands arc, so an instant stop would put great torsion on the wrist. (Been there, tried that, got hurt )

A big part of this is lost with the straight two-hand wielded split-bamboo practice sword, called shinai, which handles much more like their european counterparts. It resembles more the ancient dunno-how-it-was-called "first sword" that was used in Japan than the famous Katana.
This has a BIG influence on fighting style. To study Katana-styles, watch Kurosawa (sp?)- films ("Seven samurai" etc.): A Katana (or Tachi or Wakizashi) is used in a cuttingway in contrast to the hacking or chopping that goes along with straight blades.

There are good-balanced wooden katanas available, though, and I would recommend those for exercise.

A.

[ December 04, 2003, 19:01: Message edited by: Arralen ]