Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?

[Jasper]

I should clarify the previous post is for Dom 1. I'm not sure how research plays out in competitive practice for Dom 2, as waiting for the patch before considering joining a game.

[Saxon]

Level Nine spells do tend to pound the AI. I have got Mechanical Militia up and running and it went from being a closely fought contest to a walk over. They seem to ignore the fact I have a very powerful force guarding each province and are losing all sorts of troops attacking “lightly” defended provinces. This might be a possible change to the AI code in calculating defense of enemy provinces…

As others have said, Level Nine spells should kick some serious tail. That the AI does not deal with it well is systemic to all AI problems. The greater the effect something has, the bigger the impact when the AI does not deal with it well. If the AI can not counter a level one spell, it is not a big deal. After all, a level one spell can only do so much. However, if the AI can not counter my level nine spell, the impact is huge. The programming problem is very similar in each case, but the visible problem is bigger.

On a different topic, I would argue against the idea that “a game should be over well before the level nine spells come out.” I would agree that this is the way it usually happens, but I wish we could have games where the higher level units and spells come into play. This is a common problem with 4X games, where everyone starts at zero and grows. SEIV had an option of starting at higher technology levels, which got these sorts of things into play from the start. While it did reduce the importance of research somewhat, it did allow you to play with all the toys. Perhaps an option for DOM III.

[Pocus]

Saxon, you can play with fast research and rich world on a big map, this should allow you to hit levels 9 before the game end's.

also a game with shifting alliances can Last quite a long time in pbem. In fact I think I witnessed levels 8 or 9 spells in all my pbem games. Not in all fields and for all nations, by far, but still you should see them quite often (and often on the receiving end!)

[Gandalf Parker]

Games like "Poke in the Eye" where the independents are beefed up can also lead to longer games where research means much more. Even against AI's.
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion...2/Poke_Eye.map

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by ywl:

Also, the Wraith Lord doesn't do you much good since it is not under your control. I haven't used the spell often but judging my experience with the combat AI, he would probably just rout and disappear once the undead riders are banished.

Obviously you've never or rarely have used this spell. For the 75-something times I've casted this spell the wraith lord has never routed. In fact the wraith lord by himself has wiped out provinces after the rest have died.

Originally posted by ywl:
And even if the riders successfully beat the local defense, I think it'll only turn the province neutral. A nuaisance but not much more.

The enemy province turns neutral then you march your troops into the territory which take the territory with little or no resistance. I don't know about you but having two or three provinces go neutral every turn is more then a small problem.

Pale Rider is a lower level spell which can give you similar undead riders. And to me, a more practical spell. [/QB]

Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.


Also lets not forget people that 'master enslave' means you have to place your commander in the battefield... which means something could kill him.

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Graeme Dice... master enslave is a hundred times more difficult and dangerous to cast then ghost riders. Try and find a better match.

[ January 07, 2004, 16:13: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
with the combat AI, he would probably just rout and disappear once the undead riders are banished.

Obviously you've never or rarely have Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.[/quote]
You're not including the cost of researching to level 9 as compared to the level required for pale riders, which is at least 1500 research points.

[ywl]

Originally posted by NTJedi:

quote:

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Originally posted by ywl:

Also, the Wraith Lord doesn't do you much good since it is not under your control. I haven't used the spell often but judging my experience with the combat AI, he would probably just rout and disappear once the undead riders are banished.

Obviously you've never or rarely have used this spell. For the 75-something times I've casted this spell the wraith lord has never routed. In fact the wraith lord by himself has wiped out provinces after the rest have died.

Originally posted by ywl:
And even if the riders successfully beat the local defense, I think it'll only turn the province neutral. A nuaisance but not much more.

The enemy province turns neutral then you march your troops into the territory which take the territory with little or no resistance. I don't know about you but having two or three provinces go neutral every turn is more then a small problem.

Pale Rider is a lower level spell which can give you similar undead riders. And to me, a more practical spell.

Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.


Also lets not forget people that 'master enslave' means you have to place your commander in the battefield... which means something could kill him.

---------

Graeme Dice... master enslave is a hundred times more difficult and dangerous to cast then ghost riders. Try and find a better match. [/QB]

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I got hit with it in a game in Dom 1 and was not impressed. One necromancer or a few monks was enough to dispense them. The wraith lord didn't stay but there could be a change in the combat AI. I don't know.

Having two or three provinces going neutral is not good but as I said, if somebody got to Level 9 in a path, he could have done worse.

Matches:
"Horde from Hell" (30 Slaves) is not bad and you get to keep the troops afterwards.
"Send Horror" (15 Slaves) is powerful and it's one level lower. "Send Lesser Horror" (9 Slaves) is less potent but you can make it up with number.
"Arouse Hunger" (5 Gems) only gives you the lesser ghouls - but again, you can keep them. Ghouls are wonderful for defending seige.
"Call of the Wild" (15 Gems) is expensive and you can only target forest in Dom 2. But it's just a Level 3 spell.
"Tartarian Gate" (10 Gems): you can get a 100+ hps undead. If he wasn't feeble mind, you can even use a "Gift of Reason" to get his spell power. A better deal than harassing a single province to me.
"Fire from Afar" (10 Gems). I wasn't impressed until I once got hit by the AI. It looks like nothing but you can easily lose your important and expensive mages from this spell. And it's only Level 3 Evocation!
"Earth Attack" (5 Gems). Conjuration 8 and Earth 4. At the cost of 5 earth gems, you have like 80% probability of taking out one of your enemy's commander.

Ghost Rider might be a good deal for its cost. But at the requirements of Death 4, which is not exactly easy except for the death nations (Ermor, Ctis, et al), and Conjuration 9, it's very hard to be overpowered.