Last of the Tuatha strategy

[Shuji Doyama]

Well, greetings everybody.

I am currently trying to think out a decent strategy for the 'Last of the Tuatha' Man theme and will be thankful for any advise more experienced players can give.
For now, I am taking a divine serpent pretender for better scales - nature magic only (lvl6 usually), turmoil-luck, production and growth for more gold, dominion strength to recruit more of these Sidhe. Then I go for Conjuration magic 3 to Call the Winds and patrol my provinces to get rid of unrest.
Then... Well, then I'm a little bit stuck. I was thinking about researching lightning bolt and aim spells for my commanders, then going for the Contact Draconians to get some nice free summons. But draconians seem to be actually very bad troops because they rout after but a few rounds of combat in most cases (orders to hold and attack rear).
Sure, Tarrasques are awesome, but it's a lvl9, hard to research even with magic scale of the Tuatha.
So for now I've found useful:
1) Early expansion with longbows, of course.
2) Bards with Ivy Crowns raising Vine Ogres. Simple, yet effective.
3) Tuatha with some good protective items and a staff of storms. Being protected from lightning, he casts wrathful skies at the beginning of combat and watches the enemy die. Usually I give him some Vine Ogres, they've got alot of HP and will probably outLast an enemy. Later on Thunder Ward can be used. Main problem is to keep the Tuatha from spending all the air gems in one combat - I have to give him an 'attack' order in the end of stack, which is dangerous. Is there any other solution?
4) Couatl can be used to dispel most troublesome global enchantments.
5) Tuatha with an Air pick and a Winged Helm can cast Wind Ride to effectively assasinate enemy commanders.

For now, that's all. Comments, ideas and suggestions are really welcome.

[Windreaper]

1. Yay
2. You'd need a Tuatha with either a random pick or an item to summon vine ogres. Vinemen, otoh, aren't so much worth it, imo. They can be used effectively with poison clouds or fouls vapors , however (whichever you prefer to use).
3. Shrug
4. It's too high up in the tree to be counted on, imo.
5. True. Can also cast Dome of Solid Air, which will prove to be damn useful in the long run.
6. I'd consider ditching some scales and getting a decent blessing (water 9 comes into mind since all your mages are sacred, too). I personally think that man gets good value for the water 9 blessing.

[ January 09, 2004, 14:17: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

[Wauthan]

Well you seem to have got things well covered already.

Tuatha commanders are excellent pointmen for your armies thanks to their free mirrorimage. Put them in front to attract arrows while massing longbows on the flanks. If you can research mistform and chainlightning quickly this combination will clear out all the independant forces in a hurry.

Draconians are not a good summon for army support. They are excellent skirmishers though and can really tie up an opponent if you manage to gain a foothold behind the frontlines.

Armies of bowmen versus armies of summoned beasts is a though choice to make. Vineogres will go down very fast to friendly fire. Heck when it comes to longbows just about anything will go down fast with an arrow in the back. Especially if you don't group the bowmen into smaller units. Vineogres are immune to poison though so you can create a "Toxic Avenger" army that plays on that strength (bogbeasts, breath of the dragon etc).

[Arralen]

1) Pretender magic / bless effects
All sidhe are holy, i.e. solders, commanders and "real" mages may benefit from blessing effects.

Nature-6 will only get you a rather weak berserk-2, however, what does not that much good to your holy elite troops:

It will make them go berserk when wounded, while lowering their defense. You really don't wont that, as defense is their strength, while protection is only adequate ...

Daoine Sidhe (?sp?)
They are medium infantry with javelins and relativly high defense, but medium encumbrance as well. The attack bonus from bers-2 does not help them much (have 12 already), is not figured in for javelin throwing but lowers their 15 defense to a meager 13.
Better look for something that beefs up their defense even more (water-4 or water-6) and makes shure it doesn't drop much from fatigue (Javelin throwing doesn't count vs. fatigue, though. earth-4)
Defense-17 or -18 combined with glamour makes them pretty much unhitable by standard troops, unless they have to endure multiple attacks per round. Getting them to 2 stars of experience shouldn't be too hard, what will result in defense-19 or -20 .. few possibilities to top with on normal troops.


Commanders
.. will benefit nicely from reinvigoration, too. Plus they start out with even higher defense and reach 20+ easily.
Make a Sidhe Lord your prophet asap - fanaticism will take care of any moral problems your troops will encounter.

To make the fights shorter (less chance some enemy gets in a lucky hit, or fatigue wears your troops down), there are 2 options:

Make them hit harder (blood-4). As they have STR12 already, you may need blood-6, though, for a noticable difference.

Or make them scary (death-4). Found this especially effective - remember to set them to "fire nearest" enemy, and the approching squads will have suffered from Javelins when going into melee. Which in my experience Lasts for 2 turns only, after which the enemy front line routes. Even a second line of attackers isn't much of a problem, as fatigue is still rel. low on the own troops.

.. more about spells etc. later ...

Stefan

[Shuji Doyama]

My bad - sure, bards can summon vinemen only. I am still not sure if it's worth the gems. I was thinking about the default theme Avalon crones, of course.
*edit* : well, giving a nature bonus weapon is an option.

For the longbowmen, I mostly use them with armored troops who don't suffer much casualties from their arrows, or in the beginning of the game (infantry gets order to guard commander far from the enemy. Most independents rout before engaging in melee.) Another way is to have longbows snipe enemy archers - if there will be any, problem with friendly fire is solved.
Bog beasts sound interesting, but who besides pretender god can summon them?..

[ January 09, 2004, 14:51: Message edited by: Shuji Doyama ]

[Gandalf Parker]

quick notes. Dont forget that you are geared toward frequent use of "Call of Winds" both in magic and in gems. Move the units to another commander for patrol and use the leader for equiped kamikaze attacks.

And with such a strong sneaking military using CotW to soften or test a province that your sneak-army can mop up works well.

Those Cu hounds are cheap, sacred, and fast. Putting them with a monk on the flanks is handy. Have the the monk bless them and sned them on their way into the rear.

Vine men do not a fighting force make but as fodder and BIG morale boosters they can save you alot of cost replacing other frontline troops. Mix at a ratio of 1/3 or even 1/2

Longbows are good for fire at archers. Slingers are good for fire at closest or cavalry. Slingers are cheap and do cause rout. In fact an army of vinemen backed by slingers can be a cheap handy wall to put other units behind. Not a great army, but a handy one.

Always put archers/slingers on flanks. Less damage from friendly fire.

[ywl]

You've covered most spells. But don't forget "Protection", 3 Alteration, 1 Nature. It's castable even by your Bards and Sidhe Champion, making them more useful in battle.

And as another has said, Nature 6 is not very useful for the blessed effect. So, either go all the way to Nature 9 or just stop at Nature 4 or 5. Unfortunately, The Tuatha Man does need some help on Nature (how ironical . So, I guess having a Nature 4 Pretender is not necessarily a bad idea. I don't think too many people has looked at it, but the White Bull seems to be a good pretender. After getting personal regeneration, (Enchantment 3), he's quite powerful.

But if you want to go for diversity, adding some Fire with Moloch or Death with Prince of Death is not bad.

If you're going for Conjuration, don't forget the Firebolg (Conj 5) and Lamia Queen (Conj 6). They're both good bargains.

Also, if you go for Chaotic scale, I don't think you'd have gold to hire a lot of Tuatha (and Sidhe). Take that into account.

That's all I can think of for now.

[Keir Maxwell]

Do a search on Tuatha and you should find some idea's Jasper and I were thjrowing about in a trhead awhile back.

Basically the key to Tuatha IMO is bless effects. The Daone Sidhe need more defense to be really tough and water9 is alos good for your mages so this is what I tried. Nature will make your mages go berserk when wounded and charge into combat - scary.

I like the Cu Sidhe alot. Part of this is thematic softeness the other is that they can really speed expansion. If you find you lose them at first play with their deployment so that they do not get drawn into the main part of the battle but instead cause havoc on the flanks.

Mass Protection is an amazing spell for anyone with adequate nature and low natural armour (ie excluding items) and should be seriously considered.

Have fun

Keir

[Jasper]

After more testing I've come to agree with Keir that the Water 9 blessing is better than Fire 9 for Tuatha (a main point of our discussion in the thread he mentions). I think I must have had bad luck with my initial Water 9 test, or done something stupid. Moreover the benefit of +4 defense increases as your troops gain experience.

Still, Fire 9 + Dom 6 is much cheaper to get with the Moloch than Water 9 + Dom 6 is with a Blue Dragon...

As an aside, I think it's better to send your Sidhe into battle, rather than casting evocations. They're effective, hard to hurt, and you won't get any friendly fire. Barkskin and Mist Form help greatly here.

Also, someone else mentioned putting your Doaine Sidhe in the front to attract arrows. IMHO this is a very bad idea. True, their glamour helps a bit, but for their cost they're still vulnerable, especially due to their low protection. Something cheaper with higher protection works better IMHO, as you really don't want to lose any Sidhe during expansion.

[ January 10, 2004, 05:37: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Jasper]

Arg! I hit quote rather than edit.

[ January 10, 2004, 05:37: Message edited by: Jasper ]