Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch

[licker]

I kinda agree with Keir here, its a bit early yet to write off the Illwinter change as ineffective in fixing the percieved (though I percieve it) imbalance in order/misfortune.

I don't think the proper solution can be had by just tweeking the existing numbers anyway, I think that the effect of luck on the actual events should be changed. Such that there is no longer a bias toward good or bad events, but with luck good events are better and bad events are not as bad. With misfortune the opposite. Others have suggested this before as well. Assigning a straight % or having a set of 7 levels for each event depending on your luck level. The latter makes luck a bit less quantifiable, which I think it should be anyway

edit- Spelled Kier wrong

[ January 14, 2004, 21:25: Message edited by: licker ]

[SurvivalistMerc]

I am just very happy that they gave us the mod tools we already have. Everyone can make the scales the way they like the scales in SP. Whatever feels right to you.

So no one loses any of his toys. And the old order/misfortune combination can still be used in SP just by making events rare. Except that that feels like cheating just a bit.

I'm going to try order/misfortune in a SP game with events set to "common." But I'm not looking forward to all of those bad events. I suspect it will be worse than a death scale of 3. Because we're talking no overall reduction in events (which was formerly at least half the benefit of taking order) and 80% of the events will be bad.

I'm starting to think that Order0 Luck3 might be interesting to play. Because it will increase events some though not too much.

If anyone uses the Cherry Mod and takes misfortune-3, I would love to hear their tales of woe. Because with events increased by 21% (assuming order zero) and 89% of them bad, I think you will be in dire straits.

What I love about the ability to mod is that we will be able to gain experience with the game and then change the scales to our own points of indifference. This would be especially true if we were allowed to give them non-linear effects. How much turmoil will you accept for 120 design points? Unfortunately, changing the scales will have unintended consequences for how some of the nations with forced turmoil play if the scales were lessened to one's point of indifference. I guess I will just use default scales when I play around with tien'chi.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
ps. Saber don't take this as aimed at you as I realise what you are trying to do is make a major change in how the scales work not just fix luck. As such your mod represents an alternate way of playing not just an attempt to provide a new norm.

No problem=) I just don't like 2 scales being strongly aliased, so that moving one makes some settings of the other unviable... A minor influence is OK, though. I want fortune+order and misfortune+turmoil to be serious possibilties. With my changes, the first one is now useful, but the second one is only a little more viable than before...

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
If anyone uses the Cherry Mod and takes misfortune-3, I would love to hear their tales of woe. Because with events increased by 21% (assuming order zero) and 89% of them bad, I think you will be in dire straits.

The main problem with unluck is the major events (population loss), and those have been reduced, so overall it should prove safer than before...

...and I did not feel safe taking Luck 3 with the default 2.06 scale effects, because with luck 3 you get more events than luck 0... and thus, probably more bad events, but I can't say for sure because I don't know how event probabilities are calculated. "+21%" event frequency does NOT give you 21% more events - more like 100% more, I think.

[ January 14, 2004, 22:05: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:

Illwinter you could do yourselves a real favour on this one by removing things like gaining militia from the good list as many, many, players have pointed out this is generally a very minor bad event and very seldom useful. That events like this are still in the game is, I think, one of the issues heightening people irritation as its been complained about for a long time, without a counter argument I've heard of, yet it remains. Militia "good" events ranks up there with Abysian fire mages precision in a list of the mean things Illwinter inflicts upon us. I have read many times how annoying people find such features and never read a defence of them yet they remain. Features like this bias people against you.

Bowing to popular demands runs against the long and proud tradition of swedish paternalism. Being a swede carries with it certain responsibilities, one of them is telling people what they should think, and you Kier, you should think that militias are a good event. Also Kristoffer is a teacher, so the burden of paternalism rests even heavier on his shoulders.

[ January 14, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
Just ot repeat some things I said earlier as they seem out of keeping with much of the opinion being expressed and I'd like to know why.

1.Turmoil3/luck3 is not suicidial

2. Order3/turmoil3 may well prove suicidal.

3. Order3/luck0 would seem the new norm.

IMHO:
1. Is a clear handicap, because of the lost income.

2. Looks Dangerous to me too, although perhaps for nations with Misfortune averting mages.

3. Order 3 + Misfortune 1 has been working pretty well for me so far. This feels like the new min/max strategy to me.

I look forward to seeing Alex's scale mod.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
2. Order3/turmoil3 may well prove suicidal.

As I understand it this combo is like it was in dom1 and in dom1 it was a killer and Alex warned us all away from anything like it. I would like to hear back from games people have played with this combo, what the events frequency was, and how bad it proved.

OK, here's my report -

Playing Order+3/Misfortune+3 in a common events PBEM right now.

In the first 26 turns, Version 2.02, I had 2 bad events at the capital (brigands causing unrest - one was automatically cured by patrols, the other did cost me ~220 gold as I dropped the taxes to 0 to get rid of the problem), 1 bad event in a 2k province (again brigands), 1 mixed event (witch giving gems and cursing units - as I had no unit there it was actually good for me) and 1 good event (some extra gems). Turn 27, just before we patched, I had 1 more good event in a province in enemy dominion - castle popping out in an underwater province, the bug that was fixed in the new patch - doubly lucky!

After the patch, I had one more good event (+50 gold, -20 unrest). So in 29 turns, the net result is:

+1 castle worth 450 gold
+9 gems
-170 gold

[SurvivalistMerc]

Nagot Gick Fel,

Please keep us posted. I would love to discover what happens to you in the remainder of the game.