Unit abstraction?

Just a quick answer to your post and I'm in no way trying to counter what you want but,

The demo is availiable for free and download (hopefully you have a decent connection).

There is a map, made by Gandalf (Yay) that gives you a bunch of provinces and 2 castles enough that you can field different types of army (small, medium, large, based on what you are looking to see if fits you) way before the end of the demo and then you can send your armies to battle an opponent, or drive towards a castle.

You *should* run into an army of comparable size some time along the way that will give you the feel of the combat.

I personally don't like 3 Elves and a Swordsman conquored a town mentality, but I don't feel that Dom2 fits that bill. I've had massive battles and heroic encounters where a few units have bested a horde of enemies. It may not be on scale with what you are looking for (20,000 + battles) but it is on par, if not larger than the MoM battles (where there was a stack limit that made even the largest battles, a fight of stacks)

[Pocus]

Strange, because in our group of players, it is accepted that a unit in dominions is not one being, but a group of 10 or 100. Leaders are supposed to be accompanied by a retinue too.

Thats why in the 3 french AAR that we have, we speak of armies of thousands men. I recall my account of my first battle as Marignon, where the Royal Crossbowmen were 5500 (55 units) led by 600 paladins (6 figures).

Frankly, suspension of disbelief should allow you to see whatever you want, if you try

[Johan K]

I guess it depends on which map you use. If you play on the world map you will probably imagine that paladin unit to consist of more people than if you play on a map that only consists of Sweden.

[CarlG2]

Hi all,

Thanks for the quick replies! I do appreciate this community, as it is both active and helpful.

I had played the demo some before starting this thread up, and I do agree that with some effort it is possible to imagine that different units consist of different numbers of men. There are various dialogs (mercenary recruitment screen, for one) and other references which conflict with this ability, but I agree that it is possible.

I guess one of my primary goals in posting this thread was to see how other people playing this game abstract unit sizes, and see if I could find something that could push me over the "mental hill" that I'm feeling when I play the game concerning the represented scale. I do want to like this game, since it does have so many things going for it. As the graphics are definitely utilitarian, I think this is a game that largely is played out in one's imagination.

Thus far I do not see a concensus emerging on what the scales should be, but I do like the 100 men per normal unit, 10 per fantastic unit (summoned non-uniques, for example), and 1 plus retinue for uniques, heroes, etc. (I am assuming that is what was being described by Pocus).

Zen, I was looking to recreate epic battles involving tens of thousands of combatants, and am pretty sure that the only way to do that would be through unit size abstraction. I appreciate your follow-up, though! MoM was limited by stacks, but abstracting what those stacks represented allowed one to believe that epic-sized battles were being waged, no?

Johan Osterman, I must abmit that I thought I read in the CGW review that turns represented 6 months (and hadn't verified this in the demo...note to self...always verify first before posting "facts"!) Thanks for the correction! I still have trouble with the number of recruits that can be gained on a 1 unit 1 man scale for a month of recruiting, though (when one considers that these are entire nations recruiting warriors during a wartime economy). If abstracted, however, it makes logical sense on the number of "units" that can be recruited during that period.

Johan K: Very nice to see illwinter responding so frequently to Posts on this board. I appreciate your insight into abstraction depending upon the size of the map/conflict being represented, and agree that it is something to consider. Based on your statement, I can see that most of the values in the game could be abstractions based on the size of the world map. Food for thought. Thanks!

Again, I appreciate all of the responses, and look forward to any further discussion on this topic.

Good gaming,
Carl G.

[ceremony]

The CGW review doesn't mention the length of time represented by a turn at all.

[Gandalf Parker]

He might mean the example of a played game which is farther into the magazine. Its written in kindof a compressed mode I think

[CarlG2]

Hey ceremony,

Gandalf Parker is correct...I deduced from the way the challenge between Tom C. and his opponent was written that the turns were at the very least seasonal, and potentially bi-annual.

Add that on top of the fact that I swear I have recently read about a game where the turns represented 6 month chunks of time, and I think I made an (incorrect) unconcious correlation.

Add that on top of the fact that I was watching the Packers/Eagle game as I was reading the mag...my mistake.

Good gaming,
Carl G.