Petition for the Marginon CoTS Theme

I concur with those who stated the limitation is the high gem cost per production.

I don't see any overbearing balance issues with T'ien Ch'i that they would be *unbalanced* if suddenly they can cast their own spells. It's not as if suddenly they are going to have the gems to make it happen.

You are forcing people to either A.) Make up to 8 (just for simple purposes) CM before they can cast the spells. B.) Take away more points from the variety of Pretender/Scale design by putting 2 Air and/or 1 Earth and 1 Astral.

Now as I've played TC quite a bit in all it's themes it is by far my favorite thematic nation and it is far from overpowering.

For christs sake, It's only 2 themes cannot use it's TC specific special ability of Conscription.

So while I agree that balance should be noted, this is not what I feel the case with TC, they already have the slowest commanders of all, crazy resource/gold costs that are lowest of the dogpile for efficency, extremely vulnerable to Magic Duel, a nearly useless set of national units in horsearchers (hopefully soon to be fixed), and their National Specific Pretender is by one of the Ostermans own words "May be underpowered for the cost".

I don't think they need to be left without their national summons on the off chance that one CM you happened to recruit gets hit by a Seeking Arrow, Fires from Afar or some other random event and make you recruit through another pile in hopes for it.

I'm sorry if this sounds rantish, but such simple disregard incensed my sense of fairness.

[ January 16, 2004, 11:50: Message edited by: Zen ]

While limiting it so that you can't cast the spells with national mages may be appropriate in some circumstances. Sanguine Heritage, Illwinter, Summon Wraith Consul.

Celestial Soldiers costs 20 Air for 5 Sacred Soldiers, that while strong, takes initially 10 Turns (with TC's income) to make and can't be transformed into a Super Combatant or affect the entire world.

I don't even want to talk about the Celestial Servant. I appreciate him thematically, but he's the farthest from me saying "I got a Celestial Servant by turn 5, phear me!" about.

I've thought alot about what exactly to do about the Counts in BF. I don't want to cripple the Themes thematic glory (Yay vampires) but keeping it balanced. I don't think you can make Starting spells require a specific research level (Kristoffer might know) before they become active.

Maybe you could make a non combat Version of the Vampire called a "Sanguine Hunter" or "Sanguine Sacrifice" that has a wait period (like 4 turns, or 5 turns, depending on the balance issue) before it transforms into the Vampire Count like how a normal unit transforms into a Werewolf.

It's kind of a workaround for starting spells, but it might still work if you can't set the starting spell at a research level (like Blood 4).

It's an idea to slow the speed, but still get the original intented unit.

Edit: You could even name the unit "Topor" or "Coffin" or something, give it decent defense/protection so it can't be killed by breathing on it.

[ January 16, 2004, 12:26: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Cainehill]

Thought I'd bring this thread back up to the top, since the 2.13 patch (while bringing back the wonderful Great Warlock and Jotun Skratti as pretenders), didn't address the CotS issues.

Please, Illwinter - consider updating the starting spell for Marignon CotS. Currently, the spell is Holy Pyre, and is not castable by any recruitable national mage without either using fire gems, or boosting items, as discussed in this thread.

But thanks for the Skratti and Great Warlock!

[Huzurdaddi]

I don't really get how Vampire Counts are so abusable as SC's.

Everyone seems to think that they are, and where there is smoke there is usually fire. So could someone clue me in? Their stats are not that impressive and their paths are not that impressive. They don't seem nearly as dangerous as vampre lords who themselves are not top teir SC's.

I see that they are immortal and etherial and fly all of which are very nice abilities. But without a serious equipment loadout I don't see them being real big problems.

[Kel]

They are nice but BF Ulm has enough limitations, I wouldn't think they were over-powered. I am not a veteran but still, I have never seen BF Ulm win an MP game, I think. To be fair, they aren't the most commonly played nation but that might be a fair secondary indicator too.

- Kel

[Sheap]

The thing about Vampire Counts is that they are available so early. Sure, they aren't as good as a Vampire Lord, but the Vampire Lord is blood-7, and the Vampire Count is a starting spell. You can start making Vampire Lords as soon as you can gather enough blood (and BF-Ulm has plenty of blood).