Barbarian Kingdom mod test

[Keir Maxwell]

I had a play with my mod for improving the mounted in the Barbarian Kingdom. The mod does the following:

LC
#prec 11
#def 12
#gcost 22
#rcost 13
#armor "Buckler"
#armor "Full Leather Armor"
#armor "Helmet"
#fear -4

I wanted to take the lance away but with the #clear command not working that will have to wait. The fear is to represent the impact of agressive LC on opponents cohesion and morale. Note the def of 12 is the base and is modified up to 15 by equipment and the mount and thats what you see.

HC
#prec 9
#gcost 30
#rcost 32
#armor "Full Chain Mail"

The up armouring is to bring them closer to their armour rating in the ancients systems I know (mainly WRG) in which they are either heavily armoured or cataphracts - both probably with horse armour. As there is no Lamillar armour and horse armour is not represented I figured a final prot of 17 was ok.

The lower prec of the HC is to reflect the greater difficulty in shooting in heavy armour. It might be a bit harsh.

The Test - a quickly thrown together race aimed at having strong scales.
Auway the Lady of Fortune Nature2, water 3, dom5
turmoil2, prod2, growth3, luck3, magic1
Castle
Dragons Eye (no wrap around), indie6, events commen, 12 impossible ai's.

I would raise the prod next time, lower the magic and probably take Prince of Death as it feels more appropriate to the way the race plays - ie the big undead presence and the early rush.

I built LC and spearmen (for arrow catching) early and by turn 7 had switched to HC and LC. Attacked the first indie on turn two and expansion went smooth.

Luck provided a national hero on the second and third turns and went on to give some death gems, lots of militia, +10 res, some odds and ends and cost me my first conquered province to some vinemen - I took it back with little trouble. Then from turn 11 to 24 I have had bonus events all bar one turn and two most. I have also lost 2000 pop to a flood and 1700 to immigration in minor provinces - I've lost more than that pillaging. Weighed against plus 30 gps income in my home province, a one off 500gps, and lots more gems it been clearly better than bad and by quite along way. Lots of Militia where feed to the enemy which was not without its value. Still wish that event was less commen and you got always Zealots not militia who should just be a def increase. Anyone keen enough to volunteer for to fight for the cause should have vaguely decent morale.

Started in the NW cornor and by turn 11 had cleaned up everything up to my immediate neighbour Pythium - 10 provinces including two bigguns. Delayed a few months to assemble more cavalry and get good numbers of Spirits to the front. Attacked in a pincer movement from the west and east threatening Pythiums capital and Pythium responded by counter attacking in the middle with a big army lead by the Prince of Death. I held my ground on the flanks and fell back in the middle. I then closed in behind by taking their capital. The PoD died shortly after and I chased the left over elements of the break through around for a couple of turns. In the eastern cornor I cleaned up until Orion showed up with his Knights but a regroup and counter attack saw them shoot down by the ever larger bodies of LC. Same turn Pythiums capital fell and at present they have but one province and no army. Its t.24, gold 1137, and leading the way in most stats - especially gold and provinces.

So how have the Cavalry gone?

The LC are great. The most important improvement is the prec increase as this allows them to perform their primary function - shooting. However these guys are not like foot archers. When the few surviving enemy get to them they get lanced down and flee from the extra morale tests caused by the fear - at least thats how I interprete what I'm seeing.

The HC are proving very useful and 3 of them broke down the flank of Pythiums main counter attack in a battle I lost but still chased off 1/3 of their large armour and it had no where to retreat. At present I'm using big units in the middle on fire with LC to their flanks and this works well. Sometimes I send a small body on a flank attack using hold and attack enemy rear. I haven't had to be to be too imaginative but a number of different possiblities occur.

Mound Kings lead Spirits plus bring the reserves up, A Khan for each major army (just because), and a mage for each major army. My first Khan is my prophet and has quickness. Boots of flying for the mags is very important for speed and then you can leave behind the HI and rely on the HC for doing the grunt work.

I pillaged a fair bit in dodgy border provinces. One example is 17LC plus a Khan getting 85gps in a ~7000 province and killing 1700 people. Returns drop over the next couple of turns.

I have also patrolled quite alot. Making up for gold shortage (compulsary turmoil) by having fast moving troops who can redeploy when needed and pillage or patrol otherwise seems to work well.

Problems.

The LC seem too good. The problem is the combo of having the lance and the fear. Hit the enemy with lances then make them take extra morale tests with fear - nasty. I will drop the lance with the next patch but till then the fear is out.

The Strengths.

The LC work now. Sure they are gold expensive but their abilty to rout opponents who make it all the way to them makes them much better than normal archers in a 1on1 comparision. They are a troop type which is very multi-functional but still good at its primary role - shooting.

The HC work in their role. They now have enough armour to behave as shock and not get shot to pieces by the LC while pursuing - a thorny issue previously.

The best thing is that I'm using armies made up overwhelmingly of Barbarian Horse and its working. I'm a very happy man. Previously I have had to depend alot on foot archer and spear with BK which doesn't feel right.

Add in the syncrhoncity with the whole Mound King/Spirits thing and its all very maneuverable and with many threats.



Keir

[ January 16, 2004, 11:19: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Keir,

I'm reluctant to post any critisisms of any mods out there, as they seem to go down to negative fashions, but I hope with your post you are looking for thoughts on your idea so even though it's not exactly positive I hope you will take my comments in that light.

I feel fear is too great of an effect to put on a non-sacred normal unit. Simply because if/when a unit/squad breaks it becomes useless and you can't 'unfear' them. Even casting Sermon of Courage on a routing army won't have them head back into the fight. You can see how this might affect some nation/themes dramatically and others not at all. Morale in Dom2 is a very clutch thing and giving LC fear is overcompensating for the state they were in previously.

While I like what you have tried to do I don't feel fear is the answer, even after you can unequip lances. I would suggest an alternative game variable in Awe. Find a low enough awe modifier so that it doesn't completely stop lower end units (as it is based on morale) but it does give the effect of 'feinting' and other aspects you want to add by causing them to not even attack.

I don't feel making the cavalry powered up to the point where it can totally replace a foot army would be inclusive of balance either. While the elite core should be, the effect is to not only make BK very strong, but highly mobile and horsemen more cost effective than footmen in battle, mobility, pillaging AND patrolling, thus making anyone not on a horse useless. I don't feel historical nations built and organized their armies in such a way so I don't see why it should be as well. Even the Huns, Mongols and other horse rich historical figures were not totally on horseback, though it was their effective use of them that made them memorable.

I hope this has provided some feedback that you can use to further make a more realistic BK theme for you while not stomping on your efforts thus far.

[ January 16, 2004, 14:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Zen:
I don't feel making the cavalry powered up to the point where it can totally replace a foot army would be inclusive of balance either. While the elite core should be, the effect is to not only make BK very strong, but highly mobile and horsemen more cost effective than footmen in battle, mobility, pillaging AND patrolling, thus making anyone not on a horse useless.

re mobility

Exactly as it was most of the time - no problem with this. Have you played Pangaea using Centaur Warriors as your base troop type? CW are better than anything my BK mod gets and are highly mobile etc and backed up by Centaur Cataphracts for shock. TI think the BK mod is well short of Pangaea Cantaur abuse in terms of mobility and power.

I don't feel historical nations built and organized their armies in such a way so I don't see why it should be as well.

You should talk to my brother - he has about 8 ancients armies based the mounted mobility principle and they are all historically based with OB's inspired by real battles. Some time periods saw virtual complete foot dominiance others virtual complete mounted dominience - this is entirely realistic Zen and the present sate of affairs making BK mounted an adjunct to foot is very wrong in terms of history. Read Cecilia Holland "Until the Sun Falls" and her one on the Huns whose name I can't remember off hand. "Foot - pah who need the scum."

Even the Huns, Mongols and other horse rich historical figures were not totally on horseback, though it was their effective use of them that made them memorable.

Yes they were. I own Mongols and Hunnic armies myself and I have lots of support literature. You can't actually get any Hunnic or Mongol foot at all in their conquest periods.

You may be right in practice on fear though I do feel that its the pratical tests that answer this one not abstract reason. For know its out as its combo's to powerfully with the lance. I would add though that there is nothing game unbalencing about fear making people rout as weapons do that and everyone gets them.

During history a large proportion of armies were made up entirely or almost entirely of mounted and this includes the majority of LC based armies for fairly simple reason - foot slow them down to much. The whole point of the mod is to come closer to history by allowing cav based armies.

My entire complaint with BK is that it works when you don't use the mounted and doesn't work well when you do. Using foot should be completely optional for an army based on the Xiongnu. This is the entire point of the mod - to make BK play like a horse nomad army that has just recently taken over a more sophisticated region. These are peoples who held foot in contempt.

I think you are jumping the gun suggesting the mod will BK to strong. I'll need to do more tests to get a good idea but in the first test it played weaker than C'tis or Pangaea but stronger than Mictlan and the old TC BK theme ie somewhere in the middle. This is where I'm aiming. I am consciously not aiming at making BK equal to Pangaea Centaur races even though this is the other example of entirely mounted armies working well as Pangaea Centaur abuse is extremely strong and I'm aiming for the middle.

What is the point in having highly mobile troops if they spend all their time trapsing round with slow foot?

Cheers

Keir

[ January 16, 2004, 19:55: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

I didn't say the Mod was too powerful, I can't make that determination without playing it. But lets just take a couple of examples for sake of balance.

LC have Lesser Fear -4 (Or is it Cause Fear?). This is normally reserved for supernatural or blessing effect units.

LC are not capital only or sacred. There is no limit to the LC. That means potentially you could create entire armies (if resources/gold permits, and with your current costs, that isn't hard) of just LC all firing arrows and if they are engaged bring their fear into effect.

No Sacred unit that can get a Fear Blessing has archery, they all require movements to engage or be enganged, they can't sit back and pepper them with arrows.

Imagine either Wind Guide and/or Flaming Arrows (especially flaming arrows for penetration) with only LC?

Also imagine playing your new BK vs Ulm, who have virtually no priests?

These are balance issues and not at all inclusive of what is 'real' or 'historical'. Also there is no way to represent the fact that your LC lose their horse or any other effects which they suddenly lose their quick striking power and become weak, badly armored footmen.

All of these considered, fear is a bad choice to give for an ability and Awe is more in my mind both balancing.

I feel that it's important to take into consideration when you are making what you consider 'a more balanced ...etc' different playstyles. Not only those who like to spend points on pretenders but those who spend them on scales, and those who wouldn't build 'standard' armies and build only single units in order to see the effect. I would think just adjusting the defense/attack would be enough of a simulation of the quick striking and feinting of the LC and you wouldn't have revert to going to special events.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Zen:

LC have Lesser Fear -4 (Or is it Cause Fear?). This is normally reserved for supernatural or blessing effect units.

Zen you seemed to have missed my comments that the fear is out for know as its to powerful combo'd with the Lance. Once the Lance can go I look at it again and test it. I'm not going to rule it out by definition for if it proves the best way to simulate aggressive LC then thats what I'm want to do. The proof is in the pudding.

I'm not actually sure how powerful fear -4 is as specultaion ranges from the almost useless to handy. Its all dependant on what is the first square assigned for the fear effect as fear -4 only affects one square adjacent to the fear unit.

I have no problems with people taking the mod to task for lack of balence etc as this mod is intended to improve the balence - such criticisms are entirely approriate. I must post it now its had a test and been adjustd so if anyone else in interested they can try it. Illwinter might even like it.

Just to make it very clear - fear is out for now as they don't need it with having a Lance but I definitly want to remove the Lance as it is seriously anachronistic and also potentially overpowering. Fear will not be put back unless testing shows it to not be overpowered as my aim is balence not over the top super troops. Really I just tried it as a way of representing the fact that the troops being represeneted do not fight in a standard fashion so it makes sense to experiment a bit in trying out how to make them work.

I have learnt something from this mod - if things are out of balence it looks like its generally only by a small amount and you don't need to make big changes to get a significant change in results.

cheers

Keir

[ January 16, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Keir Maxwell]

ok ver 0.02.
-------------------------------
#modname "Conquering Horde"

#description "This mod is aimed at improving the Tien C'hi Barbarian Kings mounted troops and enabling them to be used as the basis for the Barbarian Kingdoms. It is intended to place the race somewhere near the middle of dom races not to turn it into a super nation. I'm keen to hear feedback from playtests and open to changes where necessery.

The LC get a +1 base defense, a Buckler, +1 morale, +3 precision, +2 rcost and +5 gcost. The HC get +2 precision, +1 morale, Full Chain Mail, +4 rcost and +3 gcost. When the clear command becomes operative I will remove the Lance from the LC and make them a bit cheaper.

The changes in cost are attempting to keep the troops in line with the present dom2 structure. As this is something of a mystery to me constructive criticism is particularily welcome here."
#Version 0.02
#domVersion 2.06

#selectmonster 792
#prec 10
#armor "Full Chain Mail"
#rcost 34
#end

#selectmonster 930
#prec 10
#rcost 32
#armor "Full Chain Mail"
#end

#selectmonster 938
#prec 11
#def 12
#mor 12
#gcost 25
#rcost 13
#armor "Buckler"
#armor "Full Leather Armor"
#armor "Helmet"
#end

#selectmonster 939
#prec 10
#mor 13
#gcost 27
#rcost 32
#armor "Full Chain Mail"
#end
------------------------
This Version attempts to be more rigourous in assigning increases in cost as the Last was completely subjective. I have tried to use the general approach of dom, gold for stats and res for equipment, but haven't yet had time to sit down and do a good comparison with other units so advice is great. I don't have a good idea of cavalry cost adjustments as in the past they have not got alot of usage beyond the Van.

Off to try out Kau Feng and see what he does for the Conquering Horde. Muhahahaha

Cheers

Keir

[Endoperez]

For Zen: In fact there is a possibility to make LC to lose their horses. Just give them less hitpoints and when they die you get LI. The Lamia/Serpent ability.

I know, you can do it. But right now it isn't done I wish it did. That would be a great way to introduce units unhorsed and still fight (A classic theme).

If a mod comes out and when the tools work, I'd love to see all cavalry work akin to the Hunter Spiders with either riderless war horses, or dismounted riders

Things that use Javalins in my mind are not using missile weapons per say, because in order to use a Javalin you have to close. Unless there is some big javalins out there with more than 2 rounds of range.

[Keir Maxwell]

Done a couple more tests with less success which proved as much about the problems with luck as mod balence issues.

I may have underdone it slightly in my 0.02 mod. Part of the idea coming in was that LC are overcosted and I think I let that idea slip when I made the cost 25% higher cost in gp and better. So I'm to give the first 2pts of prec and the +1 def for free. That bring the gold cost of the LC down to 22gps. The trouble with the LC being more expensive is their primary role is as archers and if they cost too much then you would be unwise to use them early (foot bow instead) which is what I want to avoid. Latter you generally have the resources for HC so you tend to concentrate on them so the time to build up the LC is early. If necessary I'll take all the bonus's bar the precision one away to keep the cost down.

The other thing I'm going to try is replacing the Lance with a Javelin and see what happens. Hopefully they will shoot with the bow at long range and use the Javelin when close. If they will only use one and I can make it the comp bow thats fine as what I'm trying to do is dump the lance without giving them two hand to hand attacks. It may not work.

When I tried using a pretender other than the Lady of Fortune I got severly manhandled by luck - 1/5th pop emmigrated from capital t.9 1/5th from biggest other 3 turns late, plague, Trog attack, all in the first 16 turns. I was also been attacked by two neighbours early (bad starting position) and had Kau Feng (PoD) feebleminded by a random arrow shot as he lurked in the back wearing rainbow armour. I decide to give up on this one when my prophet bought it even though militarily I was still putting up a fight and taking the war to the enemy - I just didn't have enough gold coming in and hadn't got a second castle even though I was using the cheap wizard tower. The random events did not destroy me and there were good ones (total of 150gps in cash) but I end up with that feelling described by so many - I'm paying for maximum luck scales and I still get bad luck.

I went back to LoF and things went much better. I have never had a significant bad event in my capital using LoF and while this is probably just luck she has become my lucky taliesmen. In fact I think the only reason I have a far kinder view of luck than most is using the Lady of Fortune. Have I just been really lucky with her or does she have an ability to stop bad events in the province she is in?

As luck issues are making it hard to get a good take on this I'm going to start using a simple luck mod. Basically its Saber Cherries idea of +-13% luck/misfortune on quality of events with no other changes to scales. This means with luck3 you have a 89% chance of an event being good - I think it was 95% in dom1 so this is not that extreme compared to what many of us are used to playing with.

I'll post the relevant parts of this to the luck/order thread.

Cheers

Keir

[ January 17, 2004, 21:06: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Arralen]

Originally posted by Zen:
No Sacred unit that can get a Fear Blessing has archery, they all require movements to engage or be enganged, they can't sit back and pepper them with arrows.

Danoine Sidhe from Man's "Last of Tuatha"-Theme.
Essentially medium inf. with javelins.

I really like blessing them with Death-4 bless (lesser fear -3). If set to "fire nearest" they advance until in throwing range, and ..guess.. start "firing". Usually they'll get only one round of missile lobbing, as the enemy closes in in the next turn. Invariably on the following turn the enemies routes .. seen this even with indy knights which had taken few losses up to that point (1 of 9 IIRC).

But I have seen them sitting there, exchanging volleys with enemy Javelinists, too (guess who won, despite being in 2:3 disadvantage). They don't move as well, if the enemy is in range at the start of the turn.

A.

[ January 17, 2004, 12:40: Message edited by: Arralen ]