Why doesn't Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?

[PDF]

Well, thanks to all for the interest !

Phalangites : KO (I mean Kristoffer ), if I use long 1H spear, my phalangite will only be an under-hoplite and not have much interest... I'd rather give them a "real" 2H pike and buff their armor somewhat (chainmail hauberk ?) to give them a decent prot.

About the graphics I really suck at that and don't event know how to change colors to an image without ruining the background, so I definitely need help ..

Cavalry : looking at the current unit what I think is that overall, the Arco HC need an improved, high morale unit to represent Agema/Companions, and maybe another "medium cav" Lancer unit (meant for shock and not too much expensive, in fact it could be a cool unit). The current LC looks Ok (crappy as all LC but OK...).
Keir, I have some material, but be happy to discuss equipement issues

As soon as I manage to find some time I'd post my units stats

[Pocus]

there is a length 6 pike in Ulm BF, if its of interest to you

[Kristoffer O]

The lancers and cavalry of the greek era did not use stirrups used by knights and HC of later times. The lance was released upon impact as the rider prefered to stay mounted.

Therefore the arcoscephalean cav do not have lances but spears. On the other hand they might deserve elite medium cavalry such as the Agema.

[Jasper]

True about the stirrups, although that was because nobody had thought of them. Once exposed to stirrups it's not unthinkable that elite units such as Companions might also adopt their use. I always found it strange that indepdent Heavy Cavalry was better than what seemed intended to parallel Alexander's Companions -- arguably the most powerfull military unit of it's day.

Then again, Arcoscephale already has good troops, and doesn't exactly need the boost. It may be better if they have no cavalry (or equivalently, cavalry so bad nobody uses it).

[PDF]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
The lancers and cavalry of the greek era did not use stirrups used by knights and HC of later times. The lance was released upon impact as the rider prefered to stay mounted.

Therefore the arcoscephalean cav do not have lances but spears. On the other hand they might deserve elite medium cavalry such as the Agema.

Yep, I know..
I'm testing my Phalangites - and am amazed at how modding Dom2 is a breeze ! .
But I gave them a Long Spear, you convinced me of that choice K.O... So Hoplites are to get "downgraded" to vanilla Spears - and I'm sure that this will make hordes of players yell and wish my death !

As for cavalry I'd make 2 things :
* Give better armor to the spear-armed (no bow) Lt Cav, pretty useless now, as a kind of Medium cavalry.
* And create a new Agema Hvy Cav, marginally better equipped than the standard Arco HC *but* with a much better morale.
BTW, how to mod it to be capitol-only ?

In the end Arco Cav still won't be that good, but at least usable ...

Feedback *and* cool tga's for my Agema appreciated

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by PDF:
Yep, I know..
I'm testing my Phalangites - and am amazed at how modding Dom2 is a breeze ! .
But I gave them a Long Spear, you convinced me of that choice K.O... So Hoplites are to get "downgraded" to vanilla Spears - and I'm sure that this will make hordes of players yell and wish my death !

As for cavalry I'd make 2 things :
* Give better armor to the spear-armed (no bow) Lt Cav, pretty useless now, as a kind of Medium cavalry.
* And create a new Agema Hvy Cav, marginally better equipped than the standard Arco HC *but* with a much better morale.
BTW, how to mod it to be capitol-only ?

In the end Arco Cav still won't be that good, but at least usable ...

Feedback *and* cool tga's for my Agema appreciated

Good! I don't mind shorter spears on the hoplites, as it makes the long missing phalangites more interesting. Hoplites are less fun than sarissa-wielding phalangites.

Capitol only is currently site dependent. Pity.

Aha! I got an idea. You could use an existing site that allows you to recruit a rare unit. I would recomend 'Horses Vale'. It is unique, allows for recruitment of 'horse brother' #450 and 'horse brother' #451 (commander). Change the horse brothers into Agema and Agema commander/champion. Add the Horses Vale to the sites of the nation and voila!

[ January 18, 2004, 21:45: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

[PDF]

K.O,
Very neat idea about Horse Vale ! Will do that.
I'm just waiting for the tgas to finish my mod and send it...

But now I think I'll have too many Arco units, how to delete some ? (Cardaces suck, nobody build them )

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by PDF:
K.O,
Very neat idea about Horse Vale ! Will do that.
I'm just waiting for the tgas to finish my mod and send it...

But now I think I'll have too many Arco units, how to delete some ? (Cardaces suck, nobody build them )

Tgas on their way. Cardaces did suck historically as well, I believe.

Units from the Horses Vale does not affect the other ones I believe. There is a #clearrec command, but it clears all units, so you will have to reenter them.

[Keir Maxwell]

re Lance use

There are some very interesting articiles around on Lance use pre the invention of the Stirrups. One that I read in Slingshot (Wargaming mag) was by a guy who jousts etc - and does it without stirrups on occasion. Sure he makes no issue of the fact that stirrups are really useful but he still can joust without them and his descripotion of why is very enlightning. It also confirms the widely held view that Companions were Lance equipped shock cavalry.

Companions are differentiated from all the cavalry around them by the fact that they are shock cavalry. If you give them a spear you are removing their historical role and I believe going agaisnt the overwhelming wieght of evidence - shock, lance armed, cavalry existed for over 1000 years before the arrival of the stirrup and superseded chariots in this role. Equipping Companions with a spear makes them the same as all the rest of ther cavalry from this period which the ancients differentiated then from - which they were not. Another example of early shock cavalry is Lydian Lancers.

If Companions let go of their lance (Sarrissa) at contact then why do we have descriptions of them fighting with broken Sarrissa? A Sarrissa had a butt spike on it and after it broke at impact Companions would often use the shortened lenght of wood with the butt spike as the spear head instead of drawing swords. You can theorise that this is impossible but for some reasons the ancients tell us it happened.

Sure you can equip Companions with spear if you want but you are going against the the generally accepted view that its was the Sarrissa was an early Lance and the Companions used it in a shock role.

Also it takes very little time to adopt tecnhonlogical inovations. The Avars turned up in europe ~500AD with the stirrup and it was adopted very rapidly by the Byzantines. Would Arco do less when everyone around them had stirrups. To me this is like giving Mictlan copper armour when they are surrounded by peoples (including indie's) using superior tech. Treating nations technology in abstract from each other is not very realistic. It was the isolation of Meso Ameriacn cultures that definied their poor level of military technology. Take them out of isloation and things bcome far rosier.

re. .tga's

I've been doing work on tga over the Last couple of days - capturing the images, cleaning them up etc and it does take awhile. Are the .tga's going to made generally available? I have vast amounts to work on and it would save me alot of time.

Cheers

Keir

[ January 20, 2004, 20:34: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Kristoffer O]

I have made some quick sprites in 'spooky sprites' and exported them as tgas. This was a rare occasion. PDF said he was unable to draw and I became stunned by the fact that I had ignored the phalangites when I made Arco. I felt sort of compelled to make them.

I do not intend to export 1100 sprites one by one, sorry