Singleuser game balance

[Miles]

In the "Topic: Oh...my....GODS!!!" thread at:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=74;t=000884

We have been discussing how game balance effects singleuser play. A typical comment is:

Originally posted by Zen:
I'm all for SP and I'm all for helping out the SP games, but Mod Tools exist for you to make whatever kind of game you want and play them SP until you drool. In the near future they will add to them the ability to make spells, items, and whatever else they intend. So you can make the game how you want it to and unbalance the game as much as you need to enjoy it.

The balance issue keeps coming up. I don't think that most people realize that multiuser balance is an entirely different animal than singleuser balance. I am sure that this has been visited may times. And probably this is all obvious to everybody. But it seems to me that this needs to be laid out again.

AFAIKT Multiuser balance in Dom2 means:

Capabilities of Nation1 = Capabilities of Nation2 = .. = Capabilities of Nation(n)

Multiuser balance is an easy to define thing. All the variables are known. They can all be controlled. They can be understood and standardized. Once you have an understanding of the baseline, adding additional Nations is a straightforward process. Hard, but straightforward.

However Singleuser balance means:

Capabilities of the current user at the current time >= Capabilities of Dom2

Lets start on the right hand side of this equation. The 'Capabilities of Dom2' include the complete user experience. It is a lot more complicated than defining a single nation.

The 'Capabilities of Dom2' is a complex composite. The most important components are:

• Predictability of the user interface.
• Complexity of the user interface.
• Understanding the interactions between different parts of the game.
• Being able to effectively manipulate the game components.

Once you have gotten a handle on whatever the 'Capabilities of Dom2' might currently mean, then you have to realize that the other side of the singleuser balance equation is a complete unknown.

Every user comes to the game with a different set of capabilities. Then, each subsequent time they play, their capabilities have changed.

Thus we see that multiuser balance has almost NOTHING to do with singleuser balance. They measure different things. The math is done in a different way. Multiuser balance is relatively static. Singleuser balance is inherently dynamic.

If you accept my definitions for Multiuser balance and Singleuser balance, then you have to conclude that Dom2 currently has NO meaningfull Singleuser balance. Dom2 does not adapt it's capabilities to the user. And, it is incredibly difficult for a singleuser player to adapt Dom2 to his capabilities.

However, I think that a couple minor tweaks (primarily to the game setup screens) and slight improvement to the modding abilities can provide a great deal of Singleuser balance.

It sounds like I am proposing that somebody else (the 2 developers) do a lot of work so I can get the benefit. However, I think that improving the singleuser experience will benefit multiuser as well. It should also provide a boost of income for the developers. And (to my totally uninformed eyes) it appears to be very simple.

Miles

Well it would be best by done by one who understands Single Player balance (as you've described it) best. As has been described by multiple Posts and fans, IW relatives , and others that the fanbase must provide what the developers cannot in what they consider an 'appropriate' amount of time.

Since you are the one advocating this balance; I'd nominate you to start the proceedure with your own effort. I'm sure you will find other people who are likeminded and can help you, but most of those who are adding to the community that you see before you have other projects that are trying to encompass other issues that they themselves or they think have reason for them to work to create.

Best of Luck

Edit: Here is one thread that might start you on your search. It's an old AI thread and discussion around it. It was hard to maintain as it was less than cordial as you can see and developer interaction is mostly limited to battles they can win, not battles that counter their desires based on their time

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=74;t=000191

[ January 16, 2004, 21:12: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Miles]

Originally posted by Zen:
Since you are the one advocating this balance; I'd nominate you to start the proceedure with your own effort.

Ok. I suppose that this means that I get to tick-off the developers. Great.

Inbalance in a person's capability to use Dom2 is most painfull when the person is new to the game. So, the most pressing thing is to make it easier for noob's to approach the game.

So, first we make a set of intro mods. In the current patch (2.06) this consists of 5 parts:

• A happy friendly (HF) mod.
• Instructions for installing and enabling the HF mod.
• A HF map.
• Instructions for installing the HF map.
• Instructions for creating a game (including god design.)

There are two problems with this:

• The whole process is too painfull.
• The noob doesn't know it exists.

The only good answer to the first problem is, we need an additional modding tool. This tool would allow us to package a mod, a map (with it's .tga), and all the rest of the info needed to create a game.

For now, I am calling this proposed tool a 'scenario'. It will have to be part of the next patch.

The only good answer to the second problem is to put access to some intro scenario's in front of everybody face when they start the game. Again, this requires a patch. The patch should make a minor change to the game menu's. The patch should also include several sample scenarios.

So, we need a list of things that are defined by a Scenario file:

• Victory conditions.
• Mods to use (Scenario will ONLY use specified mods)
• Map to use
• Descriptions of all gods used.
• Whatever else needed to specify a game.

The current Dom2 menus look like:
Create a New God
.(Clickable list of possible Nations)
..(Display Nation description)
..Ok
...(Display list of selectable Pretender templates)
....(Enter name of god into text box)
....Ok
.....(Show remaining design points)
.....Magic
.....Dominion
.....Castle
.....Set Password
.....View Magic Schools
.....Ready
...Cancel
..Cancel
.Cancel
Create a New Game
.(Clickable list of possible Nations)
.Ok
..(Clickable list of possible Maps)
...(Title of MAP)
...(Display thumbnail of selected Map's .tga file)
...(Display Map description.)
...Ok
...Cancel
..Cancel
.Ok
.Cancel
Play an Existing Game
.(selectable list of saved games)
.Play game
.Delete game
.Cancel
Network
.Connect to a Dominions Server
.Setup a Dominions Server
.Cancel
Preferences
.Video preferences
.Audio preferences
.Mod preferences
..(Clickable list of possible mods.)
..Exit
.Exit
Map Editor
.New map
.Load map
.Exit
Quit

The necessary changes would look like:

The initial menu changes to:

Play a premade Scenario
Play a standard game
Play an existing game
Network
Video preferences
Audio preferences
Map Editor
Quit

The 'Play a premade Scenario' option will lead to the following menu:

(Title="Select Scenario")
(Clickable list of possible Scenario's)
.(Title of Scenario)
.(Display thumbnail, .scn file points to .map points to .tga)
.(Display Scenario description)
.(List MODs used by Scenario)
.Ok
..(Immediatly starts the game using the info provided by the Scenario.)
.Cancel
Exit

The 'Play a standard game' will lead to the following menu:

Create a New God
Create a New Game
Mod preferences
Exit

So, the changed menu's would look like:

Play a premade Scenario
.(Title="Select Scenario")
.(Clickable list of possible Scenario's)
..(Title of Scenario)
..(Display thumbnail, .scn file points to .map points to .tga
..(Display Scenario description)
..(List MODs used by Scenario)
..Ok
...(Immediatly starts the game using the info provided by the Scenario.)
..Cancel
.Exit
Play a standard game
.Create a New God
..(Clickable list of possible Nations)
...(Display Nation description)
...Ok
....(Display list of selectable Pretender templates)
.....(Enter name of god into text box)
.....Ok
......(Show remaining design points)
......Magic
......Dominion
......Castle
......Set Password
......View Magic Schools
......Ready
....Cancel
...Cancel
..Cancel
.Create a New Game
..(Clickable list of possible Nations)
..Ok
...(Clickable list of possible Maps)
....(Title of MAP)
....(Display thumbnail of selected Map's .tga file)
....(Display Map description.)
....Ok
....Cancel
...Cancel
..Ok
..Cancel
.Mod preferences
..(Clickable list of possible mods.)
..(Right-click to see mod description)
..Exit
.Exit
Play an existing game
.(selectable list of saved games)
.Play game
.Delete game
.Cancel
Network
.Connect to a Dominions Server
.Setup a Dominions Server
.Cancel
Video preferences
Audio preferences
Map Editor
.New map
.Load map
.Exit
Quit

So, I will play harpy-from-hell and try to get one of the developers to pay attention to this proposal.

In the mean time, I will create a few 'Happy Friendly' bundles that try to tutor new players in various aspects of Dom2's gameplay.

Miles

[Gandalf Parker]

I was thinking along the same line but Im not sure a mod would be needed. A map might be all thats needed and be easier for a newbie to use.

Brainstorming....
A small map where the user plays Ulm. The map creates a useful god. Gives the player specific provinces with specific features.

The map also preselects the opponents and doesnt allow others. Play against Man, Ctis, Pangaea, Atlantis? Dont allow Ermor, Arcos, Rlyeh, Abbysia, Caelum, Jotun, etc etc. Set the AIs with dying gods (water god on land?) or particularly weak ones. Maybe kill off the home sites that give the special units.

The tga can have something like the Dom2 hotsheet thing that another user created as part of its image down the sides and such. And instructions on how to call up the info file for the game..

The info file can do a walk thru of the first 5 turns or so since the randoms for the starting area would be pre-set. You could specifically say how to attack the neighboring province, how to see what the natives are that can be made there saying "notice that this province provides cheap archers. You can make 10 per round with the resources here". Then you could walk thru "have your army patrol and have your mage search before we tackle the next province. See you found the xxxxxx site which will provide xxx and xxx each turn automatically"

3 files. A .tga, a .map, and a .txt

So, I will play harpy-from-hell and try to get one of the developers to pay attention to this proposal.

No one said they werent paying attention to it. There are other threads here which mention suggestions for pre-made gods, a pre-made started game (oh I forgot that, thats even easier to do and use). Both were declared to be good ideas and worth adding to the demo and the full disc. I think they conversation kindof fell off though before we all finished laying out good specifics much beyond "wouldnt this be a good idea"

[ January 17, 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[PDF]

Oh, at first I thought the issue was an odd-worded "AI sucks" theme ...
Dom2 definitely needs a friendlier interface and game start for newbies, the question is whether IW can/want to devote time for this (so as to review interface issues or make a "real" computer-aided tutorial) or if only fan-made maps/scenarios/guides will be made.

[Miles]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I was thinking along the same line but Im not sure a mod would be needed. A map might be all thats needed and be easier for a newbie to use.

Brainstorming....
A small map where the user plays Ulm. The map creates a useful god. Gives the player specific provinces with specific features.

This is what I was thinking. However, a mod WILL be required. The problem is, you are forgetting how utterly unforgiving the initial experience is. Take Ulm for example. It is probably the easiest Nation to play. However, it has about 40-eleven different units. What are they for? When would you pick one over the other? Well, after a month of experimentation and thought, you might begin to have a clue.

This first map needs to have 3 or 4 provinces. It needs a very passive opponent. And the players Nation needs to be extremely simple to play. Maybe 2 recruitable units - An archer, and A battle unit. And 4 commanders: A mage, A scout, A priest, and A battlefield commander. That's it.

With these simple pieces, you teach them how to start a game. How to save a game. How to restore a game. How to recruit units. How to assign them to a commander. How to move them. How to review a battle.

You get the picture. Dom2 is FULL of subtle, critical effects. You don't need to present the whole mindshattering bundle of complexity all at once.

The tga can have something like the Dom2 hotsheet thing that another user created as part of its image down the sides and such. And instructions on how to call up the info file for the game..

What an incredibly good idea. Or, the instructions for the tutorial can run alongside the sides.

Miles