Limitanei MOD, of interest ... or not.

[Gandalf Parker]

Even if balanced Im not sure if it could maintain game balance. Each race has things that are aadvantages and things that are disadvantages. If everyone picks out one thing and says it should be raised then eventually all nations would play the same. Id rather see the one where the guy wanted to replace all the nations with Ulm so that a bunch of Ulms could play against a bunch of Ulms.

[PDF]

Methinks that overall defense should be somewhat higher, so that there'd be *some* rationale to have defense > 25.
Maybe giving "strong" unit for defense > 20 would mostly do the trick - but ain't possible currently !
Balance is an issue : nations shouldn't be "equal" in defense, as they have different strength. Some are Ok (Ulm), but some soo crappy that they need a boost (Arco- but my upcoming mod will take care of this too ! )
However another problem is that defence can't have orders, so can't be trusted ...

[st.patrik]

I think there needs to be a cap on province defense if the quality of the troops involved is improved, otherwise you could sink your money into a upkeep-free iron wall around your territories, which replenishes if you leave so much as one man of it alive. This could make for more static games.

Having said that, I woud love to see decent troops being used for province defence (though obviously not elites). Ex. Pangaea: satyr hoplites backed up with centaur longbows, or Man: longbows with axemen, etc. think Ulm is pretty good as it is.

I don't know if any of you guys remember the thread, but I proposed boosting province defence some time ago based on what structures are in the province, i.e. castle=(better) national troops, lab=mage(s), temple = priest(s)

But I definitely think you need a limit

[Saber Cherry]

Suggestion for Jotunheim:

2 Vaettir and .5 Jotun militia for each point up to 20. Why? Jotun militia rout too easily. This would give them a larger morale pool.

As for Pythium... 3 legionaires per point??? Hmm. Craziness=) Velites are fine for the initial units, but Pythium is already strong, in case you have not noticed... maybe 1 legionaire and 1 gladiator per point would be interesting.

[HJ]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
I think there needs to be a cap on province defense if the quality of the troops involved is improved, otherwise you could sink your money into a upkeep-free iron wall around your territories, which replenishes if you leave so much as one man of it alive. This could make for more static games.

That's exactly why I voted yes. This would be great for us SPers who like to develop into late game without worrying about being crushed from all sides. It would make it harder to conquer AIs too, as the AI seems to be good at organizing PD. I don't know how would AI vs. AI conquests go then though. Now, if we could only make the AIs build more castles as well...

[PvK]

Originally posted by PDF:
Methinks that overall defense should be somewhat higher, so that there'd be *some* rationale to have defense > 25.
Maybe giving "strong" unit for defense > 20 would mostly do the trick - but ain't possible currently !
...

Are you just playing Arco and Pythium? Maybe they're both supposed to have weak defense, because they are strong in other areas. Pythium has been described as so strong it has no weaknesses, so even if you increase its defense just a little, it may unbalance some things because defense never goes against other defense - it goes against attacks, such as from spells as well as armies.

So you're mainly worried that defense over 25 isn't strong enough, rather than the lower levels (which I've found useful on the non-Ermor nations I've tried: Ulm, Arco, Mictlan, Vanheim, and I've fought Jotun defense )? If so, I've only ever had the cash to try such high levels as Ulm and Vanheim. With Vanheim, it was worth it because I was defending my capitol, and combined with patrolling armies, I was able to bleed the attacking enemies dry and recover to a position of strength. Defense does go up in value as it gets higher because it regenerates each attack if the battle is won. That can add up to a massive equivalent payback compared to buying, maintaining, feeding, and losing actual units, and the more you have, the more likely they are to win.

Sounds like you are playing larger/later games, though, and apparently your play style has seen many situations where you'd've liked to have more useful high defenses. So, once it's moddable, no doubt you'll enjoy the results. Sounds interesting, if perhaps not a needed change for the unmodded game.

PvK

[PDF]

PvK
You give me more experience/ideas than I actually have !
I was rather explaining than IMHO it's quite pointless to put 25+ gp in a quite subpar unit with many nations, even if upkeep free ... because it's also immobile and impossible to command.

It may have some use in SP games to strengthen some defense, but in MP it looks stupid.

So I've no experience with trying 30+ defense... and my fellow and more experienced gamers (such as Pocus) think the same way. I prefer to use the 500 gold it take from def 20 to 30 to buy real units !

In the same spirit I think that the basic defense unit should be at least good enough to warrant its cost, even if low. Cardaces and Velites don't (Velites having at least javelins...). Arco is additionally plagued by having Lt Cav as 2nd type of defense troops, bwaaaaa !