Burden of Time

[Bowlingballhead]

So basically, there's too sides to this debate:

1) Burden of Time is one of those insanely powerful spells that can wipe out whole armies and empires in a dreadfully short amount of time, and has lost people games all by itself.

2) There are many things you can do to get rid of it.

It seems to me that both of these are good points, but neither really cancels out the other. I fall on the 'Burden of Time is too nasty' side of the debate, because although there are many ways to be ready for it, it is easily possible to lose JUST because of that one spell if you're not prepared. Maybe you have the research to get to level 5 enchantment in time - or maybe you're not playing a high-research game and you don't. Particularly if your wizards are dying off and your pretender is being crippled with wounds.

I just don't feel that any one spell should be so nasty that you *have* to be ready for it. One of the strengths of this game is that you can play it in all sorts of ways tailored to your individual style. Something that is so overbearing that you *have* to make sure Dispell is handy (and that's a considerable resource investment, greatly changing your style) is too much.

[PvK]

Burden of Time is only one of the Global Enchantments, many of which are very nasty. Not being able to dispel any Global Enchantments will always be a big liability IF you get into the high-level magic stage of play.

In a multi-player game, most Globals threaten everyone, and there will most likely be someone with enough astral competence to dispel.

In the special case of a single-player game where you don't want to get dispel ability and there is an enemy like Ashen Ermor that doesn't mind Burden of Time themselves, then yes it gives more urgency to dispelling it.

For a nation not like Ashen Ermor, though, BoT is going to hurt them as well. Nations basing their forces on undead have major weaknesses to cheap priests, who are easy to mass-produce and it doesn't matter if some of them die every turn. And, several other anti-undead techniques. There are plenty of things that are scarily powerful about death and unholy magic and Ashen Ermor etc., even without BoT. There are also many things that bLast them to dust, take them over, get them all to dissolve, etc.

PvK

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by PvK:
If so, I'm lucky. The only time I've seen the AI cast BoT, the very next turn, another AI dispelled it.

Very lucky. In my games BoT is cast at 1:3 ratio during first 30 turns. In my Last game Jotunheim cast it on turn 15. Never saw AI dispel it.

Your arguments seem to assume the player's nation is rather weak, to be ruling out so many options. Such assumptions aren't saying much about BoT - you're mainly saying that if you're weak and they're strong and using BoT on you, then you're in trouble. If you're that weak though, you're in trouble when they do anything to you. Being unable to dispel any global enchantments is of course a weak situation to be in - many global spells are hard to deal with if you can't dispel them or cast something better yourself.

On the other hand, getting someone up to enough Astral to be able to dispel isn't all that hard. I did it with Iron Faith Ulm with an Astral-1 priest, and it wasn't hard. There are some items that can make this pretty cheap, especially if you have construction bonuses. If you assume they don't have astral gems to do this, you're saying they're too lame to dispel anyway. And you're probably ignoring that any gems can be made into astral gems at a 2:1 rate with alchemy, if need be.

Not necessarily weak, just assuming it is cast early in game since it is level 5 spell and AI is able to cast it much sooner in game, limiting your options greatly. In order to empower mage to cast dispel using alchemy you need large gem income (100 gems to make 50 astral gems and give mage 1st level of astral, 60 gems for 30 astral for 2nd). You do need to research dispel which is also 5th level like BoT, and if you try to use items to boost astral on mage, you need level 6 in construction as well. All this is assuming you direct your research efforts and gem income to counter BoT at the start of the game, not after BoT is cast. If BoT is already cast, you simply have no time to boost and research what is needed to dispel it.

I am assuming this is on default game settings, not gold/magic rich/poor maps.

As for cheaper units being more vulnerable to BoT... how does BoT take effect? What resists it?

Not entirely sure about what helps resist it, but I know high HP helps. Mages seem to be quite vulnerable to it so magic resistance is unlucky to be helpful against it (though I'm not 100% sure about it). Sage’s die quite often from it so that is why empowering one may be bad idea. Units in Ashikaga mod seem to endure it quite well but I'm not sure why (their units mostly get afflictions, and not die).


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I'll post best strategies to counter BoT for each nation separately that I know of, so fell free to add any comments.

Abyssia - In next patch demons won't be affected by BoT so best way is to focus on blood economy (which is what you probably already do playing this nation) and rely on demons as your army. Also, using national hero as assassin to find and kill caster is valid option.

Atlantis - I'm not sure how is Atlantis affected by BoT but their best bet is to rely on dispel, since they are astral nation.

Pythum - Powerful astral nation so dispelling it is probably easiest for them. They can even try to use the 'Vengeance of the Dead' spell to kill the caster.
They will have more trouble if they use 'Serpent cult' theme, so they should go for Gift of Health if they can't dispel it.

Man - Gift of Health, try to find the caster and use seeking arrow if possible or some other means to kill him. Crones seem to be quite vulnerable to BoT so Man player will have problems as soon as BoT is cast.

Ulm - I don't play much Ulm, but they would probably have most trouble with BoT considering their inferiority in magic area. Use what you can or simply try to overrun enemy that casts BoT (and hope he is the only one). Whatever you do, do it fast.

C'tis - If you play default or miasma, you can try to go for undead troops until you or someone else dispels it. They have astral income and shamans so they can go for dispel.
If you play 'Desert Tombs' theme, you don't want BoT removed! Even if it affects your income, switch all your undead priests to raise soulless and you will have huge army even sooner then Ermor.

Arcoschepale - Dispel is valid option on both themes and they have Priestess to heal troops so BoT shouldn't bother them much.

Caelum - Using surgical strike with flying troops on caster is possible option (if you manage to find him and he is not that strongly protected). BoT will hurt them so they have to think about counter before BoT is cast.

Ermor - They get only benefits from BoT so no counter needed.

Marignon - Varies with the theme. Default could go for dispel.
'Diabolical' faith could go for demons (like Abyssia) and think about dispelling it in the future, although they wont be as affected as other nations.
'Conquerors of the sea' Marignon can get it dispelled more easily then previous 2 themes.

Panganea - Go for 'Gift of Health' until you find and kill the caster. Most of their troops heal afflictions automatically and have significant number of HP so they won't be hit so hard as most other living nations.
If you use 'Carrion Woods' theme, you will benefit from BoT.

Vanheim - This will be more difficult, but they can try to go for blood economy and build demon or undead troops until they manage to get rid of BoT by some other means. Vanheim can be hurt badly with BoT so you should think and prepare to counter it before it is cast.

Jotunheim - Their troops have lots of HP so they should get mostly afflictions from BoT. They have a wide variety of options that covers using undead or/and demon troops, dispelling it or simply trampling foolish nation that hides caster.

R'lyeh - Dispel is best and fastest option. You don't want undead armies massing and invading sea provinces.

Mictlan - They can use both demons and dispel it (using their moon priests). They should preferably do it both since their normal troops aren’t very resistant and mages can die from BoT as well (which hurts Mictlan much more).

T'ien Chi - Dispel it FAST. Could use a little preparation before BoT is cast, but using alchemy to speed up dispel is probably best for this nation.

Machaka - 'Gift of Health' is valid option and their best mages aren't so vulnerable to BoT. Still, you will want to get rid of it ASAP. If you get Black Sorcerer with astral skill, you can try going for 'Vengeance of the Dead' to kill caster.

Overall, counters depend on lots of factors, like who casted spell (if caster is enemy pretender you will probably have hard time killing him – Vengeance of the Dead is probably best way to get rid of pretender caster), your pretender (all nations can get good astral income if they use astral pretender), your and enemy location (if nation that has BoT active is on the other side of the map, attacking it using normal troops is hardly and option), etc.

[ February 14, 2004, 12:54: Message edited by: Daynarr ]