Bless effect costs using standard pretenders

rabelais · #1 February 8th, 2004, 05:30 AM

Did an analysis of how many scales you could get while using the most efficient path to a particular bless effect. All remainder was used up on dominion.

Fire/Moloch=75+168 (path3 -->9)= 257 remaining with Dom4/=6scales
Air/Virtue=50+224 (path2-->9) =226 with dom 6/=5scales
Water/ Blue Dragon= 50+224 =226 with dom 3/=5 scales
Earth/Cyclops 125+168= 207 with dom3/=5 scales
Astral/Oracle 0+168= 332 with dom5/=8 scales
Nature/Green Dragon 50+224= 226 with dom 3/=5 scales
Death/ PoD 50+168=282 with dom3/=7 scales
Blood/ FoB 0+168=332 with dom5/=8 scales

Note that these assume one takes no extra paths and the zero point fort, given the canonical 40 admin castle choice... subtract 2 scales.

It casts an interesting light on the presumptive value (and accessibility)of the various bless effects.

Rabe the Optimization Weenie.

rabelais · #2 February 8th, 2004, 05:33 AM

Also conspicuous is that earth lacks a path2 standard pretender.

Given the cyclopian (particularly MP) limitations as a supercombatant (only one eye, and extremely poor precision) it seems to be the dearest bought.

I think the cyclops might either be given better precision, (eye of aiming is not available, obviously) or a forge bonus to compensate.

I would also potentially argue for a zero point/Dom4 immobile pretender being made for each path, so that the bless effects themselves can be tweaked for balance independent of platform.

Rabe the de facto Ulysses-Hater

LordArioch · #3 February 8th, 2004, 07:02 AM

I've noticed the unbalances between blesses myself. Considering that earth/water/nature are relatively expensive, I usually use them less than I might, especially considering water is IMO often the best bless possible for standard troops.
Blood and astral are only so cheap from the immobile pretenders, and blood's lvl 9 seems very weak, and astral's seems best mainly on flagellants or high defense light armor troops, and even then questionable compared to fire 9.
Eliminating earth/nature/water/astral and blood based on cost concerns and limited effects, this leaves death and fire. Unless your troops are undead, death 9 is weak, making soulless out of your elite sacred troops.

This leaves fire 9, my standard bless effect. Most sacred troops have low damage weapons relative to their def/prot levels, and the fire lets them walk right through the enemy forces, barely even slowing down in their path of destruction.

Note: This is only in some cases. Don't complain when you set up a Niefelheim theme set up around 9 fire and it doesnt work well. I'm talking about sacred troops like those of Pythium/Arco/Vanheim/C'tis/Ermor/Man...so forth. Most of these I believe usually benefit most cost efficiently from 9 fire, and you get a free moloch equivalent to ~20 crossbowmen with fire darts.

Norfleet · #4 February 8th, 2004, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LordArioch:
Unless your troops are undead, death 9 is weak, making soulless out of your elite sacred troops.

Yeah, Death-9 is a pretty weak blessing, although it should be noted that being a weak soulless still beats being a corpse. Still, I'm not really entirely sure how one would really capitalize on this soulless effect, other than geo-whatzits "turn sacred mages into upkeep-free weak soullesses by blessing them and then deliberately killing them in combat".

Ironically, Death-9's blessing is the most useless to the people most likely to have death 9.

Xavier · #5 February 8th, 2004, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Eliminating earth/nature/water/astral and blood based on cost concerns and limited effects, this leaves death and fire.

I can't agree that you can eliminate nature or water for cost (and certainly not limited effects). While you aren't going to find a pretender with 3 in these (except for the water nations, IIRC) IMHO the bless effects are well worth it if you are playing a nation with a decent blessable unit.

I've found Nature 9 works great for Jotun Woodsmen (credit to Zen for suggesting this) and Pan's White Centaurs. Probably work for Atlantis' blessable unit, too. Basically anyone with the HP to survive long enough to see the benefit (except for Pythium Serpent Cult's Hydras, as they already regen quite well). And the berserk doesn't hurt either.

And as for Water 9, well, 50% quickness with +4 defense skill? Need I say more? Sure it costs a little more, but that is a phenomenal effect. Especially when combined with, say, the fire 9 blessing. Go with a Moloch - IIRC you end up taking 3 negative scales and 5 dominion, fire 9 and water 9, and spend no points on castle. Of course, there's only a few nations that can handle scales like that, and that have blessable units worth the exraordinary cost.

edit: make that 5 negative scales for dual-blessing Moloch

[ February 08, 2004, 20:29: Message edited by: Xavier ]

Arryn · #6 February 9th, 2004, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xavier:
I've found Nature 9 works great for Jotun Woodsmen (credit to Zen for suggesting this)

And as for Water 9, well, 50% quickness with +4 defense skill? Need I say more? Sure it costs a little more, but that is a phenomenal effect.

Try N9W9 for the Woodsmen. Superb. Just don't do it in MP.

Xavier · #7 February 9th, 2004, 02:13 AM

Bah! Who needs scales anyway!

Saber Cherry · #8 February 9th, 2004, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:
Originally posted by LordArioch:
Unless your troops are undead, death 9 is weak, making soulless out of your elite sacred troops.

Yeah, Death-9 is a pretty weak blessing, although it should be noted that being a weak soulless still beats being a corpse. Still, I'm not really entirely sure how one would really capitalize on this soulless effect, other than geo-whatzits "turn sacred mages into upkeep-free weak soullesses by blessing them and then deliberately killing them in combat".

That's really the only useful ability. Soulless are only useful for causing the enemy fatigue by killing them.