Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[Wendigo]

You already made up your mind to ignore counsel from more experienced players , so be it. I will make one Last attempt and leave you to make your own mistakes & learn from them.

You are using your Wyrm at the front of your armies, it's going to die & get hurt vs competent opponents whether you like it or not, I have killed my fair share of Wyrms to know it. And when it dies, it will lose magic levels and become more & more vulnerable to being magic dueled.

And you assume that those same possible hostiles also have an astral caster of L5+. Your assumption is no better than mine, I think. Is it common to find players of Pythium, R'lyeh, or Arco taking Astral-5+ pretenders? After all, don't many of the same arguments about diversifying paths apply to them as well?

It's in no way as adventurous as yours. Unlike Jotun, those nations can roll Astral 4& 5 mages. Unlike Jotun, those nations can forge the crystal coin. Those nations can afford to script a few mages to magic duel, knowing that only landing one removes your pretender & makes him more vulnerable to future duels.
You will not be duelled by pretenders, but by national mages.
Those nations are not restricted in their random picks as Jotun is, but you either do not know this or are sidesteping it. They do not need any particular magic on their pretenders as Jotun does. One random pick in fire/air...allows them to communion & cast the related wards.

Versus fliers how? If you mean Storm, that's Evoc-5, which is past the early game (by my reckoning), and would hurt me more than help, unless I give up the idea of flying myself. However, if I do, then Storm is certainly a wonderful defensive spell -- that any air-4 mage can cast.

Uhu? you have no fliers without air magic, nor the magic to summon them. SoS is constr4, easily early game.
You do not fly your pretender in the middle of the enemy army & in short range of all enemy mages if you want it to survive.

I've never been struck by lightning or air elementals. Just fire spells, and fire/water/earth elementals. Perhaps I've just been lucky so far and no opponents have been strong in air.

Peharps you need more experience.
Try sending your Wyrm vs a few orb lighning casting mages, or see how your army fares vs Wrathful skies.

edit-quoting was wrong

[ February 10, 2004, 18:53: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Arryn]

Question: do you wish to see less prose and more clear, concise (ie: dry) facts, or leave the AAR style as is?

[Pillin]

Personally I enjoy the current style immensly

[Arryn]

Wendigo,

You have made many valid and interesting points. It's too bad that you feel that you must bludgeon me with them in a most abrasive/abusive manner. It leaves me wondering just what it is that you want from me? Are you this way with anyone who even remotely questions your wisdom?

I also find it interesting that you cherry-pick quotations where the views differ and ignore any in which they agree. Strikes me as a recipe to just argue. In a normal discussion, it's perfectly fine for there to be agreement as well as dissent. Why do you focus on just the dissent? Let's look at a few examples:

#1. my statement

Perhaps I've just been lucky so far and no opponents have been strong in air. The biggest advantage I see is the extra path early on. I'm just not so sure, still, that it's worth it. But I'll very likely try it in another game. I play lots of SP games, and have 6 ones active at the moment

Here I've just acknowledged your points and say that I intend to check them out.

your response

You already made up your mind to ignore counsel from more experienced players, so be it

Hardly warranted, I think. Purely argumentative, if not an outright flame.

#2. my statement

I never said this was my sole strategy, nor one I use injudiciously. ... What I said was that I do this fairly often, against small-to-moderate sized enemy forces. Forces I feel reasonably safe in using it against, based on prior experience.

your response

You are using your Wyrm at the front of your armies, it's going to die ... vs competent opponents whether you like it or not

Which totally ignores my earlier comment that I would not do this against forces that have a significant chance of killing it. Be that as it may, on the one hand you are arguing in favor of an air path SC, then turning right around and basically saying that all SCs are bad because they run the risk of death. Can't have it both ways.

#3. my statement

Conjuration-6 will get me an air-2 mage, in the form of a Harbinger, for 25 astral gems

your response

you have no fliers without air magic, nor the magic to summon them

What part of my statement did you not understand? For in this you are clearly mistaken. I presume you are familiar with this spell, and the summoned creature?

In closing ...

your response

Perhaps you need more experience

I have never said I didn't. If I knew it all I wouldn't be on the forums asking questions from time to time.

So I ask again, what it is that you want from me?

[Wendigo]

I have nothing vs you. I want nothing from you (except that you stop dragging me into this with questions as your Last one).

If my arguments have convinced you, fine. If not, fine also but do not move from the topic at hand as if debating opposing views on a board was some kind of personal vendetta.

[Bossemanden]

My feeling is that the discussion has reached a point where it should either stop or be pursued in another thread. I like the AAR part but the discussion seems to be getting negative.

But Arryn dont stop the AAR now please.

Me likes it.

I believe that what Pepe is trying to say is there are counters (which there are for every combination and variety of nations and themes) to this particular Wyrm strategy.

Which is of course true. If not, everyone would use Wyrms constantly and there would be no other choice.

The primary reasoning for this is it's lack of slots (body slot in particular for Elemental Hauberk), the vulnerability of Astral Magic in general (especially on Pretenders) and the heavy handedness that most newer people use their SC's.

On the other hand Pepe, Arryn is only defending what she feels and knows is right at the current, perhaps in a fashion that is argumentative, but that is just the way some people are. You should know from your Dom1 days that the learning curve from newbie to experienced is quite a turn, especially for those going from SP to MP. So maybe you could cut her a little slack, not everyone will take what people say for fact until it's been used against them.

Also, Arryn you need to not specifically bow down to the more experienced members (which Pepe is), but take their advice with a grain of salt and not try to find flaw in the argument, but the key questions as to what and why they arn't constants (which in this game they are not, no amount of planning and preperation will give you a consistant response to every game, there are just too many variables).

Just agree to disagree, try to leave any personal comments at the door (cough, cough).