The next patch

[Zapmeister]

Water/Nature perhaps makes more sense from thematic point of view. But if clams would be made along this elements than I think 10 water 5 nature would be much better, especially if clams will be left at con4.

Clams and fetishes are both Con2, and there's little to be gained by raising either to Con4, IMHO, even if we agree that clams are out of balance.

Any amazon priestess could make them since they have nature 1 water 1 magic pathes... They are extremely cheap at 100 gp, in addition to being sacred troops that halve their maintaence...Amazon provinces are quite common forest type province. Besides nature 5 water 5 is too low anyway, IMHO clams should cost at least 15 gems total to slow its return of investment.

Maintenance on the clam forgers is not really an issue, amazons are not common (at least not as common as national troops) and our objective is to slow the rate of clam production which can be done without increasing their total cost, IMHO.

Changing clams from water-2 to nature-1,water-1 is a small enough change to have some chance of being accepted by the devs, and the folks that think there's no problem to be fixed.

[Stormbinder]

[quote]Originally posted by Zapmeister:

Any amazon priestess could make them since they have nature 1 water 1 magic pathes... They are extremely cheap at 100 gp, in addition to being sacred troops that halve their maintaence...Amazon provinces are quite common forest type province. Besides nature 5 water 5 is too low anyway, IMHO clams should cost at least 15 gems total to slow its return of investment.

Maintenance on the clam forgers is not really an issue

Granted, it's not the most important factor but it still should be taken into calculation to get the whole picture. Mages are expansive. If you use say, your 270 gp none sacred mage as lvl 2 water one, than maintance would cost you 18gp per turn for each clam-maker. These things tend to add up. While 100gp priestess would cost you 3.3gp per turn. That's quite a differnce, if you are thinking about many clam-makers working together.

, amazons are not common (at least not as common as national troops)

Anything is not as common as your national troops since you can build them in any castle, so obviously you can't judje indep. province frequency by such criteria. However as far as idep province types concern amazons are pretty common in the forests. I usually end up with anywhere from 1 to 2, sometimes 3 amazon provinces in my games after initial expansion stage.

and our objective is to slow the rate of clam production which can be done without increasing their total cost, IMHO.

I don't think that nature 5 water 5 would be an adequite solution. The solution that could fix overpowered clams problem without raising its cost - like seting max limit on number of clams per player, would require some changes to the code, and therefore is more likely to rejected by developers than simple small increase in gem cost.

[ April 05, 2004, 04:33: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Zapmeister]

Anything is not as common as your national troops since you can build them in any castle, so obviously you can't judje indep. province frequency by such criteria.

Yes you can. We're trying to determine the availability of clam forgers. Atlantis and R'lyeh have national units that can forge water-2 clams. No-one has national troops that can forge water-1, nature-1 clams without a lucky random pick. That's the point.

The solution that could fix overpowered clams problem without raising its cost - like seting max limit on number of clams per player,

But I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that making them water-1,nature-1 is enough because of the reduced availability of forgers and the usefulness of nature gems for other purposes.

I'm also saying that anything more than that is overkill, and will never be accepted by the folks that don't even agree that clams are out of balance in the first place.

[Stormbinder]

Anything is not as common as your national troops since you can build them in any castle, so obviously you can't judje indep. province frequency by such criteria.

Yes you can. We're trying to determine the availability of clam forgers. Atlantis and R'lyeh have national units that can forge water-2 clams.

First you are forgeting Jotunheim. Second - all I was saying is that is that amazons are quite common forest province, with mages that can be 5 times cheaper than your national water 2 mages, and capable of making clams that fits your suggestion for their gemcost (5W/5N). That's all.

The solution that could fix overpowered clams problem without raising its cost - like seting max limit on number of clams per player,

But I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that making them water-1,nature-1 is enough

I know that. And like I said I disagee with that, for the reasons explained below.

[ April 05, 2004, 05:07: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[rabelais]

Speaking of the next patch... can someone tell me whether it has lockable research sliders?

The current system makes it impossible to obtain certain distributions. Since reductions in one get added to the smallest, and additions get pulled from the largest.

Drives me CRAZY!


Rabe the Unbalanced

[Zapmeister]

First you are forgeting Jotunheim.

Ah yes, the Skratti are blood-2, water-2 aren't they. I think Mictlan's Rain Priest does it too. But that adds weight to my argument.

Second - all I was saying is that is that amazons are quite common forest province, with mages that can be 5 times cheaper than your national water 2 mages

But you also agreed that maintenance wasn't a major issue. We're looking for factors that are not just relevant, but will make the difference between choosing a clam-hoarding strategy and not. Forger maintenance is not such an issue.

Add to this the fact that 2 gem types are required for nature-1,water-1 clams meaning that, in the case of R'lyeh and Atlantis for example, a nature gem supply must be found, and the pretender is probably the only unit that can find it.

I know that. And like I said I disagee with that, for the reasons explained below.

So then, which of those reasons have I not addressed?

[PrinzMegaherz]

I just wondered whether it would be possible to play games with stronger gods? Maybe a map slider you can use to vary the points each player gets to spend on god creation between 400 - 600 points or even more, just like the point bonus given to difficult AI.
What do you think about this?