On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat

Peter Ebbesen · #1 March 30th, 2004, 08:32 PM

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Originally posted by fahdiz:
Huzurdaddi - you mentioned a reluctance to taking Astral on an SC, probably due to Mind Duel...but I think you might reconsider and stick Astral 5 on a Wyrm. Talk about an SC! Research up to Astral Shield and let him rip through the indies. It's really amazing...

Fine in SP, less fine in MP where one of the astal nations will have a lineup of 6-10+ cheap L1 astral units all with orders to mind duel.

Apart from the threat of battles, I have not tried it, but I assume i sucks big time to be mind-dueled to death in an assassination attempt by a R'lyeh Star Child.

AhhhFresh · #2 March 30th, 2004, 08:45 PM

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That is a lot of research for turn 5 I think it may be possible for turn 6 (which means attack on turn 7). I have not played R'lyeh but that seems like a lot of research (considering that you lose 2 mage-turns forging).

Yes, you're right... it's attack on turn 7. And all I'm doing is recruiting mages, researching, and patrolling with the starting army to combat raised taxes.

It might be possible to do it a turn faster by alchemizing your astral income to fire gems... but it's probably not worth it, since you're gonna need those when you get to Construction 2.

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A fine list of spells (especially Breath of Winter). Hard to pull off in the ocean though. Once you reach land you may indeed be an SC though. You do accumulate afflictions though. The VQ does not.

With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

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So you will be taking nature as well? What are your scales and what are your paths? Having astral is a big hole in a SC due to magic duel. If you astral is not above 6 people can send cheap casters at you (I hope that the die is not open ended in magic duel ... but I don't know, if it is you are never safe, that's horrible!).

3 Water, 7 Astral, 3 Nature
With scales of: 3 Order, -3 Sloth, 3 Magic
Dominion:4
0 Point Kelp Fortress

The dominion is quite low for an SC, which is why I like the 88 base hp... so I can fight outside it... and just build temples and cheap indie priests... and I make an assasin or scout my prophet, to extend dominion ahead of my Void Lord.

The castle is not much of a weakness, as resources are largely irrelevant to R'lyeh... and you actually end up with a mausoleum if you beuild a fortress above the waves, so it's like a free 40 points.

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Don't you already have like horror +15 or something silly like that?! How much do you need

Alas, it's only +5... so +10 makes it the equivalent of a Wyrm wearing 2 horror helmets. Which makes me happy.

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Against high strength independents I find that all pretenders need some help, it's just a matter of how much help, and that translates into how many turns. And I find that the VQ wins that race. And in some cases by a wide margin.

There is no doubt that the VQ is the fastest out of the gate... most definately with Ulm. And her immortality allows you to be a bit reckless with her initially... which is fantastic for someone just learning how to use an SC...

Though, if they don't slap some armor or her or learn to cast stoneskin, they are going to be disappointed.

EDIT: Magic for Void Lord pretender was off.

[ March 30, 2004, 19:37: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Peter Ebbesen · #3 March 30th, 2004, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

Tell that to one of my friends' super Molochs with exceptional equipment who lost an arm to my crossbowmen - in melee. He swooped directly into the formation and let them suicide in melee attacks against his 16 AP fire shield, but some of them got lucky enough to hit him for a few points of damage and one of them cut off an arm.

It may be unlikely, but it does happen if you get attacked by enough troops, even if you are ethereal, lucky, and have exceptionally high defense and protection.

AhhhFresh · #4 March 30th, 2004, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:
Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

Tell that to one of my friends' super Molochs with exceptional equipment who lost an arm to my crossbowmen - in melee. He swooped directly into the formation and let them suicide in melee attacks against his 16 AP fire shield, but some of them got lucky enough to hit him for a few points of damage and one of them cut off an arm.

It may be unlikely, but it does happen if you get attacked by enough troops, even if you are ethereal, lucky, and have exceptionally high defense and protection.

You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

I'm sure it can happen... but I like my odds with 3 attacks per round, plus quickness, plus breath of winter, plus astral shield, plus fear +10... I'm pretty confident that the attackers that aren't dead, frozen, paralyzed, or running away: can't hit or hurt him. I guess I'm "reckless".

And anyway, that's partially what the nature is for... either Gift of Health or a Fairy Queen mid game.

Peter Ebbesen · #5 March 30th, 2004, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

No, I do not. It was a super-boosted Moloch in all respects.

atul · #6 March 30th, 2004, 09:49 PM

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Originally posted by fahdiz:

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How about using Pretenders as magical artillery? Is this more or less common than using them as SC, and is it more or less effective, or about the same?

I am sure there are people who do this - I tend to usually either build for supercombatants or site-searchers/forgers. But a site-searcher could certainly be used as artillery, given the right paths and the right research. The trouble with this is that you won't really get much out of them in the early game, because your research won't be high enough for some of the really effective artillery spells.

If you've got the path high enough for it - Fire Darts. Evocation 1, armour piercing, amount of darts goes up with path level, though path-independent low damage forces you to research up to Flare before going up against heavy cavalry. Plus, you can get the scorching started from turn 2.

Of course you need some screen of troops and this isn't answer for all -strategy, but if you're looking for an artillery support from the start, the darts are an option. With fire9 as an added bonus: flaming weapons bless effect.

I'm quite uneasy trying to thug my way with expensive units (dying, wounding, etc) and found that one approach a bit more forgiving than a melee pretender when I had to quickly come up with something for a MP game few months back.

AhhhFresh · #7 March 30th, 2004, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:
Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

No, I do not. It was a super-boosted Moloch in all respects.

Well, like I said, I believe that it can happen... but I have yet to see it happen vs. indies... in dozens off tests against random str 9 provinces. That's good enough for me.

And the Void Lord can't go blind, so he's at least immune to that particular ticket to the SC retirement home.