On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat

[Huzurdaddi]

Huzurdaddi - you mentioned a reluctance to taking Astral on an SC, probably due to Mind Duel...but I think you might reconsider and stick Astral 5 on a Wyrm. Talk about an SC! Research up to Astral Shield and let him rip through the indies. It's really amazing...

Actually my 1st SC was a wyrm with astral. I was shocked to see how well he did in combat. I actually thought that something was wrong with the game

However after reading how Zen is so afraid of astral on SC's I decided I should try something else.

And all I'm doing is recruiting mages, researching, and patrolling with the starting army to combat raised taxes.

Hmmm ... increasing taxes and patrolling on the 1st few turns. That may in fact be a good idea! I've never done it since I thought that the population loss from higher taxes would make it not worth it ... I'll have to try it out! Good tip!

With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

Well My VQ gets them all of the time (weirdly) and she has protection in the 30's, is etherial, and regenerates. However her defence is no where near 20. Oh and silly me I don't give her a coin of luck most of the time (cuz I'm a tard).

3 Water, 7 Astral, 3 Nature

Nice astral! If Mind Duel is not open eneded (and I think it's not ... I hope it's not) then you are safe from those cheap level 1 dudes. Good decision!

with a mausoleum if you beuild a fortress above the waves

Is that right? Wow, that's a pain for those aquatic races. I suppose that means that you have to forge sacks of wine quite commonly!

There is no doubt that the VQ is the fastest out of the gate... most definately with Ulm.

Yes ULM would be turn 3. That would be nice. Pythium (my current fav!) is turn 5. No idea on the other races, I figure they will take a touch longer.

You forgot the regeneration, which lowers the chances further, right?

I think it reduces it by 90%, actually so yes indeeeddy!

No, I do not. It was a super-boosted Moloch in all respects.

Sucks to be him then!! But that follows from my experience with my VQ (note: I do not have astral shield).

If you've got the path high enough for it - Fire Darts.

B
leech whenever I use these all I see is them raining everywhere but on the enemy

With fire9 as an added bonus: flaming weapons bless effect.

Now you are talking this is a great bless effect!

And the Void Lord can't go blind, so he's at least immune to that particular ticket to the SC retirement home.

Really? it says that he starts of "blind" but I thought that was just window dressing and for flavour.

Anyway to summarize what we have so far:

The VQ is an excellent combat pretender by turn 3 (if ulm) or turn 5 for many other races. She can fly which gives strategic options. However she is not the most uber of all pretenders in 1v1 combat.

The Void Lord is an excellent combat pretender who takes about 7 turns to take off (if you research hard). He also requires pretty harsh scales to be truely excellent (due to cost of magic paths) however he will obliterate any independent, and will do well in 1v1 combat later in the game.

Anymore good SC's to add? With accompaning magic paths, items, and turn by which he/she becomes Ub3r.

[ March 31, 2004, 01:52: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
Fine in SP, less fine in MP where one of the astal nations will have a lineup of 6-10+ cheap L1 astral units all with orders to mind duel.

Astral 5 vs astral 1 is a near guarantee that the wyrm will win every duel.

[AhhhFresh]

With that combo: etherealness, luck, 14+ protection, 20+ defense, regeneration... I think it might actually be numerically impossible to get afflictions from standard troops. It's at least very improbable.

Well My VQ gets them all of the time (weirdly) and she has protection in the 30's, is etherial, and regenerates. However her defence is no where near 20. Oh and silly me I don't give her a coin of luck most of the time (cuz I'm a tard).

Yeah, luck is pretty crucial (an additional 50% miss rate beyond the 75% from etherealness)... and so is defense... since the only 100% sure way to not get afflictions is to not get hit!

The reason why you are getting more afflictions is because the chance is related to what percentage of your HP the damage you receive is. So the lower your hit points, the more likely you are to get an affliction.

Not a big deal for a VQ though.

I feel that things like Astral Shield and serious Fear effect are very important, because they reduce the number of attacks that come at you dramatically...

Being a walking blender is helpful too (understatement)... but that's hard to balance with not falling unconcious due to fatique... because I'm not sure what the exact numbers are for what that does to your defense and protection, but I'm certain it's really really bad.

Oh, and I never invade a Lizardman province with my SC... curse is, uhm, irritating.

[ March 31, 2004, 03:22: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

[Huzurdaddi]

Astral 5 vs astral 1 is a near guarantee that the wyrm will win every duel.

Let's see what happens against a cheap astral 1 mage. Let's assume that on a tie the attacker wins. Let's also assume that the die is not open ended (if it is open ended, and I hope it is not, then the chances of dying are always quite high and there is no defence).

Given you roll a 1, then if he rolls a 5 or 6 you die.

Given you roll a 2, then if he rolls a 6 you die.

Total probability of death: 3 / 36 or 8% of the time your SC will die. Or put another way it takes on average 12 level1 astral mages are required to kill you.

For level 2 astral mages the chances of dying are 6 / 36 or 16%, and it takes on average 6 mages to kill you.

If on a tie nothing happens then you are pretty safe, only a 1 / 36 chance of dying against level 1 mages and 1/12 chance of dying against level 2 mages.

So level 5 is not great defence. Level 6 defence is great. And level 7 is SUPER.

[Huzurdaddi]

since the only 100% sure way to not get afflictions is to not get hit!

LOL. I agree. And the astral shield really helps too.

The reason why you are getting more afflictions is because the chance is related to what percentage of your HP the damage you receive is. So the lower your hit points, the more likely you are to get an affliction.

I did not know that it works this way. If so well that makes a big difference!

Being a walking blender is helpful too (understatement)... but that's hard to balance with not falling unconcious due to fatique...

Actually this is a big one IMO. I find that many times my SC's (not the vamp queen) go unconcious due to fatigue. This is one of the main reasons I like her. Perhaps I do too much buffing. You really should see if you can work earth into your pretender for Earth Might. But your fear of +10 probably saves you from really long fights.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
Fine in SP, less fine in MP where one of the astal nations will have a lineup of 6-10+ cheap L1 astral units all with orders to mind duel.

Astral 5 vs astral 1 is a near guarantee that the wyrm will win every duel.

---

Not really.

I have a hard time imagining anybody massing mind dueliests without somebody carrying a Banner of the Northern Star or casting Light of the Northern Star to boost the horde of duelists to astral 2.

Which gives you a 5 to 2 situation. As Astral duel is determined by adding 1d6 (closed) to the astral rank with ties killing both duelists, the odds of killing off the Wyrm are actually pretty good.

Using this comparative chart, we see that with the +3 advantage, the Wyrm has a 16.725% chance of dying each duel, for a 1-(1-0.1675)^n risk of dying against n duelists. For n=6 that is 66.7%, for n=10 the risk of the Wyrm dying is 84.0%.


On the other hand, we might be in the situation that there was no Banner of the Northern Star or (more likely) one in which the Wyrm also boosted by 1 (e.g. Power of the Spheres, Light of the Northern Star), leaving the Wyrm with an effective +4 advantage, which translates into a 1-(1-0.08402)^n risk of dying when facing n mind duelists. For n=6 that is 40.9% risk of dying, for n=10 it is a 58.4% risk.


Near guarantee that the Wyrm will win every duel? I think not. And if the side massing low-level astrals began using communion before mind duel, I really don't know what would happen.

An advantage of 6 makes you immune (until the opposition communes or boosts), an advantage of 4 on an extremely important unit (such as your pretender god) makes you a target.

(Note that the risks are very slightly off, as the percentage chance of dieing was based not on actual probabilities but Saber Cherry's statistics based on 2,000,000 tries)

[ April 01, 2004, 05:26: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[Firebreath]

Forgive me for asking. But is it really likely that someone would bother building lots of astral mages and telling them all to mind duel....when most of the time that your fighting the enemy won't have any astral mages in their army, or if they do - you can't be sure of it beforehand ,so you'd be wasting your time (unless you're at war with an astral nation, but there arn't many of those...)