Vampire Queens and Sneaking Armies

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
Why can't your SC have exactly the same thing?

So which pretender chassis has as many advantages and few disadvantages as the VQ?

Except that your hits will be AP x3 damage.

That's if you have a fire 3 mage available. That definetly limits the nations that can accomplish it. She's also has all the advantages of being undead. Your pretender will either get tired because you aren't using any life drain, or you will be using up two or more equipment slots for reinvigoration. Any standard SC needs at least two MR items and regeneration, so with the Flambeau, skullcap, AMA and regen ring you have an armor slot and a boot slot left over. You now have no elemental resist or flying.

You've probably also managed to rack up a few afflictions by this point, while she will be perfectly healthy. You'll also need to be able to bring your SC to her every single turn, since she is perfectly safe inside her dominion. This also presupposes that you know what kind of pretender your opponent has, and have more gems to spend than your opponent, since the flambeau alone is more expensive than the equipment needed to turn a VQ into a SC that can destroy any grouping of conventional troops.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
If ANYTHING has Soul Vortex and Phoenix Pyre, it has essentially unlimited resurrections against normal riffraff. You hardly need a VQ for that.

190 points for the VQ, the next cheapest is the PoD, which is hardly as effective.

A VQ is a highly potent base chassis priced at a reasonable 110 points. The baseline model is not that impressive, however, unless you invest a sizeable chunk of your nation points in tweaking it for battle.

Water 2 costs 56 points on her. That's a single scale for a nation with earth 1 mages to make all your opponents normal armies completely useless. Not other pretender can even come close to her survivability.

Ultimately, the VQ has one very specific role: It's built to be the ultimate combat base chassis for a pretender, and very little else.

So why is it no more expensive than a mage chassis like the lich? It should be at least 150 points, as it is considerably more powerful than a titan for example.

By the time you've bought the loadout needed to make it a monster, you have very little free points for anything else:

That's a laughable argument. All you need is to spend 250 points to give her 2 paths at 2, and death at 3. You then have plenty of points remaining for most nations, since you won't need many troops anyways with her capabilities.

So yes, the VQ is definitely the most potent base chassis you can pick for an SC pretender....

Which should make it by default the most expensive chassis, since there are plenty of other combat pretenders out there that aren't nearly as effective and cost more. Why are her new magic paths only a cost of 40 instead of 50 or even 80 of the other combat pretenders? She even has immortality so that your investment is perfectly safe.

The VQ strategy is not an adjunct on top of an existing core strategy that is already strong:

You're scrambling here. To make her a combat monster costs no more than a fire 9 Moloch.

If you're worried your conventional army will be utterly destroyed by it, then don't send your conventional army into a place that the vampire might be:

Then you'll be able to provide strategies that don't involve SC units for every nation to defeat such a pretender. Oh wait. You can't do that, can you.

Thanks for agreeing with me that she's the most powerful pretender by the way, which is exactly what we are saying is the problem. No immortal unit should be the most effective combat pretender.

[ April 14, 2004, 01:47: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
So why is it no more expensive than a mage chassis like the lich? It should be at least 150 points, as it is considerably more powerful than a titan for example.

Because a VQ does not start with a L3 path like the Lich? As for the Titan, the VQ may be more powerful in combat, but the Titan has dominion 3 and a L3 path to start with (apart from the nifty hps) making for an easier strong bless effect and high dominion, should you so desire. Different strengths for different gods.

EDIT: This should not be understood as if I am against a general increase in the price of the VQ, to the contrary, I am for a price hike. It only addresses the specific questions asked.

[ April 14, 2004, 02:26: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

I believe the statement and I personally agree that the VQ is built for abuse both as a SC and as a Domain powerful unit, getting not only Free Vampires (Which can provide a sizable defense within your own domain) as well as an immortality for having a high dominion. If you look at any other Pretender they only have 1 of those 2 abuses. Either A.) Immortality or B.) Free Troops. Only the Vampire Queen, Son of Niefel and Ghost King get a usable troop type that doesn't purely rely on the Pretender to use them in combat (though your preference may be to only have them with your VQ or GK). Moloch's Imps, Daughter of the Land's Lions, Father of Serpents 'Free Units' are not dominion based but are also essentially as much a handicap as much as a benefit as it disallows versitility.

The only other Immortal Pretenders are the Bog Mummy and Phoenix. Only 1 of the 2 have decent slots and that one has subpar stats (as when you are looking at Immortality for a SC, you have to look at "out of the box" stats, slots, and abilities, which you can tell which is clearly superior).

I see no reason why the Lord of the Night costs 150, while the VQ costs 110. It at the very least should be moved up to 125 with other "Combat" pretenders and hopefully more limited nation selection.

Of course, that is my opinion based on the fact I'm tired of seeing newbs and veterans alike carbon copy pretenders instead of utilizing the variety that is found in the game. But of course I also don't think Clam Hoarding is a big deal, so my view is more than likely off.

[ April 14, 2004, 02:10: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Norfleet:
If ANYTHING has Soul Vortex and Phoenix Pyre, it has essentially unlimited resurrections against normal riffraff. You hardly need a VQ for that.

190 points for the VQ, the next cheapest is the PoD, which is hardly as effective.

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The cheapest would be the Michtlan Smoking Mirror at 102 points I think.... But perhaps he is a bit too feeble.

Of other interesting combinations, a Phoenix Pyring Soul Vortexing Lord of the Gates would cost 140 points, a Nataraja 156 points, a Golden Naga 160 points, a Red Dragon 170 points, heck, even making Odin the All-Father able to use that combination can be done for 195 points.

There are lots and lots of good pretender chassis that can use Soul Vortex and Phoenix Pyre if that is what you want, and quite a few of them cheaper than the Vampire Queen.

[AhhhFresh]

Well, why not take away the etherealness like Tawqus suggested... I don't think I'm familiar with any literature that says that Vamps are innately ethereal like ghosts and specters and what not...

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
There are lots and lots of good pretender chassis that can use Soul Vortex and Phoenix Pyre if that is what you want, and quite a few of them cheaper than the Vampire Queen.

Sure, but every time they get hit they risk permanent afflictions. If they are being hit hard enough to die then they will likely gain them quite quickly.