Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

[PvK]

If lots of people choose VQ, that just means lots of people think it's powerful and/or want to try it.

If a group of players really think it's too much and wish VQ's were weaker, it's a few lines of modding to tone her down somehow. In the thread suggesting such, I think we were leaning toward simply increasing her cost or her points required for new magic paths (and/or reducing her starting paths).

PvK

[Norfleet]

I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I recall Zen mentioned a switcheroo-style game.

Besides, Zen says that there's no VQ problem, since VQs are clearly not optimal. It's not even really that hard to kill one, if you know what to do...and there's a lot of ways to do it.

that its possible to kill reliably the VQ of an opponent doesnt means she is not unbalanced.

If I take a parallel, the German Atlantic Wall was a success. It costed far more for the allies compared to its costs (roughly 2 billions dollars) to the German. You have to take into consideration the direct cost of something, and the indirect cost too, and often the indirect cost is far more important to consider.

[Anglachel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

Yep. I repressed a sigh this morning when I read yet another topic about the Vampire Queen and how to "fix" her. Would be nice if you guys that object to her would try and look for "in game" solutions to your problems with the Vampire Queen rather than "out of game"(i.e. NERF HER!) ones. You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly. Just take a step back from the whole Vampire Queen thing and try to get some perspective. An "in game" solution would be more creative and fun to me than an "out of game" solution. If there were no "in game" solution to the Vampire Queen THEN she would need to be nerfed. From reading on this forum, this seem to NOT be the case though. Do a search and you will find Vampire Queen counter tactics galore. Anyway, this will be the first and Last time I post on this subject. Pretty tired of the perpetuation of it and don't want to add any more to it than this post.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Would be nice if you guys that object to her would try and look for "in game" solutions to your problems with the Vampire Queen rather than "out of game"(i.e. NERF HER!) ones.

Why don't you provide a method for every nation to easily defeat an elemental immune VQ with full equipment, MR in the 30's, all three damage shields, five or six mirror images, mistform, luck, and protection in the 20's. Note that this has to be a solution that works _after_ she has finished her buffing spells, as you can't guarantee that she won't come without an army in front of her. It also has to be a solution that can work multiple turns in a row.

You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly.

The insults make you look really mature.

If there were no "in game" solution to the Vampire Queen THEN she would need to be nerfed. From reading on this forum, this seem to NOT be the case though. Do a search and you will find Vampire Queen counter tactics galore.

No, you will find tactics that are available to a few of the nations in rather special cases, and which mostly require that she be caught alone so that every spell hits her.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums.

Note the "Lose his entire army to one". If that's not overpowered for a naked SC, then I don't know what is.

And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

I'm calling your bull**** here Norfleet. She's immortal, and won't lose any magic paths for a death.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Yep. I repressed a sigh this morning when I read yet another topic about the Vampire Queen and how to "fix" her. Would be nice if you guys that object to her would try and look for "in game" solutions to your problems with the Vampire Queen rather than "out of game"(i.e. NERF HER!) ones. You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly. Just take a step back from the whole Vampire Queen thing and try to get some perspective. An "in game" solution would be more creative and fun to me than an "out of game" solution. If there were no "in game" solution to the Vampire Queen THEN she would need to be nerfed. From reading on this forum, this seem to NOT be the case though. Do a search and you will find Vampire Queen counter tactics galore. Anyway, this will be the first and Last time I post on this subject. Pretty tired of the perpetuation of it and don't want to add any more to it than this post.

I'm not one of the "VQ Terror Squad", but actually I'd say that no there is not an ingame solution. Yes you can kill VQs. Problem is that it doesn't gain you anything. She doesn't lose magic paths. She doesn't waste 1-6 turns of the nations time as they try to call her back. It doesn't even get the VQ off your back, because the ***** flies right back! It's like you're swatting cockroaches with a sledgehammer.

In addition, you wind up wasting your time with Vampire Death Squads, which you have to build a lot of, because you can't tell where she'll strike (except you know it'll be friendly dominion for her). These VDS's aren't optimal for regular combat, so they're collecting upkeep twiddling their thumbs hoping they'll stumble across the VQ, who is probably smart enough to avoid those armies.

Frankly, the VQs are exasperating because too many people consider them the ultimate pretender (and they do have a bigger pile of goodies than any other, imo). In one game, 3 of the closest empires to me had VQs, on my borders, at once. It's nuts.