Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I'm calling your bull**** here Norfleet. She's immortal, and won't lose any magic paths for a death.

So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime.

[Anglachel]

[quote]Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Anglachel:
[qb]

You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly.

The insults make you look really mature.

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Insult? Just thought it was merely a descriptive turn of phrase. At least that was how I meant it at any rate. Didn't realize also that you could glean maturity from one sentence posted on a board. Guess I should have written something like "You guys fuss about the Vampire Queen too much." But wait, somone might find that insulting as well and question my maturity yet again(curious that you find my maturity a subject of interest). So what is a person to do? Guess I had better not express any opinions then. They could be interpreted as insulting as well!

Seriously though,I just like the image evoked from the phrase I used. Didn't realize you found insult in such things so easily. My apologies to everybody. It's stuff like this that keeps me from posting on Boards usually. I I find this board to be exceptional in lack of taking things out of context, petty bickering, arguing for the sake of arguing, and petty, personal comments that I fail to find has any relevance on the topic at hand. But I guess there are always exceptions. Oh well, I will content myself to sitting on the sidelines and just reading the Boards. Take it easy.

[JaydedOne]

Originally posted by PDF:
Funny how some people react sometimes : on the ground that a VQ is beatable they dismiss the issue of its/her unbalance.
We aren't talking of strategies against VQ, but about balance and variety in Pretenders.

Agreed. VQs are, at face value and after some experience playing them, just a little too much better than the average Pretender. Generally, if I know that there's a Pretender I'll play for 95% of the games (the other 5% being small map, difficult research or something of the like) I enter into with a certain country in MP, it's either a matter of extreme personal taste and comfort or it's a matter of that Pretender having a disproportionate advantage over its fellows.

As has been mentioned in other threads, either the VQ needs a slight power-down (loss of flight or ethereal might be enough) or a good number of other pretenders need a slight power-up.

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I'm calling your bull**** here Norfleet. She's immortal, and won't lose any magic paths for a death.

So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime.

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That's extremely difficult to do, with your "mad castling and temple-ing" strat.

It's broken, admit it.

You should be proud that you found a chink in the ruleset armor, but that doesn't mean it needs to be preserved.


Rabe the Large (sacrificial) Lamb.

[Vynd]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime.

I don't claim to be a skilled multi-player. But I don't see why eliminating your opponent's dominion is something you "have to do anyway." Surely it is better to have a province with an enemy's dominion in it than to not have the province at all, right? Especially if the enemy's dominion is something relatively benign, like high order and productivity. You won't benefit from his nice stuff, but it only hurts you to the extent that it impinges on your own dominion's benefits. Of course it would be even better if it had your dominion, but if you keep taking over the enemy's territory, building the occasional temple and whatnot on the way, then surely his dominion will start to decline.

The problem comes in when the other guys dominion is actively unpleasant. That's when you have to work hard to reduce it and restrict it, as opposed to just taking over the territory and watching the dominion gradually switch as a matter of course.

Thus, it seems to me that the argument that you can deal with the immortality of the VQ simply by doing the things you would do against any opponent seems flawed to me. Combating the dominion of the VQ requires an extra effort, making it that much harder to research, build a strong army, etc.

[ May 03, 2004, 18:36: Message edited by: Vynd ]

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Originally posted by Cohen:
If you know you'll play another Nation, why not to do the pretender as weak as possible?

Because if everyone does it, then they get a junk pretender back. I guess what I was trying for was: Make something you wouldn't mind playing as OR playing against. If the optimal solution for Switcheroo is design a WEAK pretender, then remind players that you might get it thrown back in your face-- either courtesy of someone else who had the same idea, or your own concept boomeranging on you.

And perhaps you find yourself playing with a Nation you dislike, or you'ren't skilled in (especially for newbies) ...

Part of the risk.

I believe this is not realizable.

Also I haven't been around long enough to really get all that deep into things, but I see there's been quite a run of response in 12 hours, I'll have to wade through the rest and maybe modify the idea. If and when I get into an MP (is there a MP rookie league?) I want there to be a variety of designs out there, not variations on a (rather depressing) theme...
Oh and the closest I've come to anything involving clams is that when I picked that picture I'd had fish and chips for lunch that day.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Cohen:
Most of the players won't use mod in MP, cause none can assure these players does the mod to advantage them or however, which is their balancing skill.
...

The players have to use it on their end too. It's simple to see what exactly a mod does, especially a small one.

PvK