Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
It also has far cheaper paths: If you're not willing to screw over your scales to get the high and diverse magics needed to create a really heavyweight SC, you can go the GK route instead, and either get the same scales with higher paths, or more paths with the same scales. If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. The lifedrain is a minor matter, as the VQ loses its lifedrain when given a weapon, which you will do shortly anyway, just to prevent empty slots from picking up cursed items. The blood magic is mostly meaningless on the VQ, as blood is by far the cheapest path to empower in, and provides absolutely no benefit in combat, the main reason why you'd take a VQ: To have the best possible base chassis for building a monster SC out of it. In exchange, you basically get squat all as far as dominion strength(an unexceptional 2), and blessing bases(death/blood, neither of which are strong blessing material). You're going to have to pay for any extras yourself. While a potent defensive weapon, as an attacker, the VQ is somewhat less impressive, as immortality is gone in enemy dominion, and the chassis itself is physically frail, having a mere 23 base HP.

Um... norfleet, with all due respect, this is a bunch of hooey.

You do not need to give the VQ items to avoid boobytraps, because she drops everything when she dies. (at no penalty to paths) Even cursed, horror marked and afflicted she can be a uber-SC with no risk. Bully for recuperation!

Scales are nigh irrelevant, except for magic and luck.

Dominion dependent HP's are bugged, and in my experience, very rarely do you avoid a bonus, unless you are jumping from negative dominion to negative dominion (something you explicitly would not do with this strat) so regen is more useful than the chassis would indicate.

The life drain sometimes works even with through items(again bugged?), and since she needn't fear curses, you would in any case be foolish to divest yourself of the ability.

The path cost difference between 20 and 40 is immaterial, since the GK cannot rival the VQ as a naked SC. It may be that any immortal chassis is abusable, which is why I recommended changes in immortality, not the VQ per se.

Ermor has the points to be munchkinish here is all that matters.

Hell they might still be able to build a munchkin SC if the path cost were 80 for the VQ ...though someone would have to run the numbers. (I'm sure you have)

It is BROKEN for ermor. I know you are fond of it, but come on.

If you can build a (near or absolutely) naked immortal SC (esp with native high dominion), and get enough income from luck/overtaxing to protect your temples... there is no reasonable strategy that will do much more than slow you down.

Meanwhile ermor can afford to be patient as magic-3 gives them excellent research.

It has been demonstrated (by you) that this is quite a plausible scenario, and something therefore needs to be changed.

Basically AFAIKT if a person can attack ALL your castles with enough strength to get the walls down in simul, then they could threaten you.

This is unlikely to be the case, as you know.

Even if you subject to a huge pile-on (as you should be) it would have to be far more coordinated than most I've seen to have an effect.

Meanwhile whoever is *trying* fruitlessly to stop you is losing developmental ground to other nations and will eventually get cannibalized.

Rinse and Repeat and. Victory is nigh inevitable, if you are patient.

If there is a legitimate counter to the ermor-naked-VQ SC... with castles to protect omnipresent temples, I'd love to hear it.

I'm a fairly clever fellow, and I can't find one that is plausible with an even remotely level playing field.

Ironically, one might stop you temporarily with a non-drainable horde, but as you are ermor, the difficultly in acquiring such is ...formidable.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense.

This is indeed not "equivalent" to immortality, but it's definitely a feather in the cap of somebody taking the GK route instead. Sure, it's not a substitute for immortality, but the lower chassis cost, combined with the lower path cost, will let you afford better defensive paths on top of that.

All you need is immortal naked SC viability, the path boost above the minimum munchkin design is unnecessary and beside the point. The synergy between immortality and dominion for ermor (who recuits troops independent of scales) is simply too great.

As I said, you should be proud you found a way to minimax break the game, but that doesn't mean it should be permitted indefinitely.


Rabe the Rebutter

[ May 03, 2004, 23:39: Message edited by: rabelais ]