SCs other than the vq

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
but immortality is the crux of it. As has been noted by everyone, you can kill a VQ, just as you could kill any of these other pretenders w/ a ton of points.

The VQ however, loses nothing from this, except a few baubles.

The crux is really her flexibility... of which the immortality is no small part.

Full items slots, a host of natural abilities which lessen the need for scripted spells and/or items, and semi-reasonable path costs.

Though, if you are fully utilizing the item slots, then you shouldn't really be utilizing the immortality... the two sort of oppose each other. That's a lot of gems to waste on a loss... certainly not the equivalent of losing a mortal pretender, but clearly still significant.

The path cost and natural abilities however, mean that she can be quite potent naked... with 5 turns of buffing. An unbuffed and naked VQ is nothing to fear... which would be where flying units come into play.

My admitedly merely moderately experienced self says that raising cost/paths is probably sufficient to bring her back to the pack... though I'd rather see the other pretenders surge forward to catch her... but that's a lot to ask.

EDIT: Oh and Archaeolept, stop posting and upload your pretender up for the game on Moggy's server!

[ May 04, 2004, 23:48: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Originally posted by Kel:
Not sure about bigger but yes, that could also use some attention. Since this board seems to have pretty consistent opposing Groups on balance issues(Old Boys Network vs. everyone else), though, it seems unlikely that they will be able to come to much of an agreement on several pretenders.

From the Polls, there is a different consensus. Or the Old Boy's Network is huge. Anyone remember the first Clam Poll? Most probably don't see it as an issue because it's only the most vocal of wheels that need things 'answered' and 'right now!'.

Originally posted by Zen:
I don't think that's true at all. It allows you to make decisions that would be bad for a non-immortal pretender but become good for an immortal pretender. Immortality isn't just a side-note, it's a major factor. And even if you don't die, the recuperative effects are still useful.

Yes, that just means you have your safety blanket for any mistakes you make. It's not a side note, if you are prone to either A.) Mistakes or B.) Being surprised. So if you are more likely to not meet those conditions than likely a non-immortal pretender will work in nearly any situation that an immortal one will. Where Immortality shines is in defense, making people pay a larger attrition per province taken inside your dominion. Since at least a percentage of people prefer the "Defense, defense, defense" mentality this molds well with how they think and how they play.

[PvK]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
... My admitedly merely moderately experienced self says that raising cost/paths is probably sufficient to bring her back to the pack...
...

That's my feeling too, after wading through most or all of these discussions. I'm liking the 80-point new path cost suggestion at the moment.

PvK

[PvK]

How about these ideas?

* Fighting fire with fires. Vampire Lords (?) seem similar but a bit better than VQ's. They also can summon vampires. This is a blood spell, or national spell for Black Forest Ulm. So... if I am BF Ulm or my pretender or national mages have some blood power, at least by mid game once I can cast summon some Vampire Lords, I am thinking the solitary VQ is going to be in trouble, no?

* Priest army. How ofter does a Holy-2 Banish spell hurt a VQ? Even if never, suppose I have some potential vampire-defeating units of some other type. I put them with an army as bait for the VQ to come try to get me, near the edge of her dominion. The surprise is, my mob of priests is that turn Preaching. If I have them, I have Skeptics, Inquisitors, or dominion-draining items in the army. Result: VQ arrives, gets killed, and oops - her dominion was unexpectedly sucked dry in the same turn. So no ressurrection. Or does the sequence of play not allow this to work?

PvK

[ May 05, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: PvK ]

Originally posted by PvK:
How about these ideas?

* Fighting fire with fires. Vampire Lords (?) seem similar but a bit better than VQ's. They also can summon vampires. This is a blood spell, or national spell for Black Forest Ulm. So... if I am BF Ulm or my pretender or national mages have some blood power, at least by mid game once I can cast summon some Vampire Lords, I am thinking the solitary VQ is going to be in trouble, no?

The factors here are that Vampire Lords don't start with magic in the right spheres. I'm pretty sure every "VQ is overpowered OMG!" debater will mention that you need a few key magics to really make the VQ shine. Notably Air/Water at the very least. Second portion is that you are forgetting the Dominion bonus of HP which the Lords do not gain.

* Priest army. How ofter does a Holy-2 Banish spell hurt a VQ? Even if never, suppose I have some potential vampire-defeating units of some other type. I put them with an army as bait for the VQ to come try to get me, near the edge of her dominion. The surprise is, my mob of priests is that turn Preaching. If I have them, I have Skeptics, Inquisitors, or dominion-draining items in the army. Result: VQ arrives, gets killed, and oops - her dominion was unexpectedly sucked dry in the same turn. So no ressurrection. Or does the sequence of play not allow this to work?

PvK

This works and is an easy way to bait a VQ player into dropping their SC on you mistakenly and suddenly all those precious points vanish. Though this in and of itself can be a little bit of chore. When combined with the Castle and Temple Strategy with 10 Dominion you are going to have a bit of an issue dumping down the dominion fast enough unless you have a truly mammoth amount of Holy 3 Priests or Cerimonial Faith

[ May 05, 2004, 00:29: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Kel]

Originally posted by Zen:
From the Polls, there is a different consensus. Or the Old Boy's Network is huge.

I honestly don't know what you are referring to.
The clam poll (and I thought we were talking about pretenders) shows that the majority think clams are over-powered (I am not counting the ones that said they wouldn't mind a change). To be fair, 2/3rds, at this time also said the poll was biased. Either way, though, I don't see your point about what the polls prove or where you are going with it.

Originally posted by Zen:
Yes, that just means you have your safety blanket for any mistakes you make.

No, it doesn't, really. If a decision is bad for a mortal pretender but good for an immortal one, that is an extra option, an extra strategy, not a safety net for careless play.

Originally posted by Zen:
It's not a side note, if you are prone to either A.) Mistakes or B.) Being surprised.

or C) Using your pretenders abilities to the fullest.

Originally posted by Zen:
Where Immortality shines is in defense, making people pay a larger attrition per province taken inside your dominion. Since at least a percentage of people prefer the "Defense, defense, defense" mentality this molds well with how they think and how they play.

Immortality shines in many places. Even if making people pay a larger attrition per province were the only one, that's not a safety blanket for the pretender, that is giving an extra strategy to the pretender.

And again, immortality effectively includes recuperation. Are you contending that good play means your pretender never gets hit at all ? While I admit to not being an experienced player, I would think that most SC pretenders who never chances getting hit and never take a chance on dying are not fulfilling their potential.

Most games, strategy and otherwise, are based, somewhere, on risk vs. reward. Immortality lets you take the bigger risks for the bigger rewards...only it removes the risks (within your domain, anyway).

- Kel

[Gandalf Parker]

Maybe we need a Van Helsing?

Actually I thought the VQ was susceptable to priests just as much as the rest of the common Ermor group. How about if certain damages were alittle more permanent. She doesnt need to be made weak, just beatable by a fairly available strategy

Priests should be permanent banishment

routing to a non-friendly province should be non-returnable

a susceptability to something. Astral magic?