VQ Counters - NO Debates

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

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Originally posted by AhhhFresh:

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.

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Thats one of the reasons I thought the VA was more of a small-map fast-game problem. There are all kinds of interesting things far up the research ladder. I dont tend to play many games that far so I couldnt remember any specifically

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I haven't tested it fully, only pulled out a game where I could cast it and checked their stats... but that quick check seems to indicate that it would work pretty well. While the angels stats aren't all that great...

1) The Archangel leaders are Lvl 4 Priests
2) Angels fly (no chance for VQ buffing)
3) They are equiped with a magic weapon that does (13+13)x3 AP damage to undead
4) You can summon them to any province
5) The spell uses magic movement, so unless she uses teleport or something, you know that you will catch her
6) They stick around after the battle

I would guess that knowing where the VQ is, you could say: cast it 3 times in one turn(3 Priests and 18 angels) on that province, and come away with 0 casualties and a temporarily dead VQ.

If she had chaff with her, that would be problematic, as you can't give the angels orders ahead of time...

And I'm not sure how well it would work with a fully decked out VQ... but the only real defense I see, would be a (heh) high defense... which isn't that easy for a VQ.

AND you need several Astral 5 mages, 50 Astral gems for each casting, as well as Conj 7...

Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?

[ May 05, 2004, 22:49: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

[Blitz]

Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?

The fatal flaw is you are down 50 astral pearls, probably an angel or two and the VQ loses... a battle. Maybe a province. There's no reason for that VQ not to charge back into that same province the very next turn, regardless of how futile the odds seem to be against winning.

Furthermore, I have my doubts as to if the strategy works. Maybe I'll test it out and see.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Blitz:

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Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?

The fatal flaw is you are down 50 astral pearls, probably an angel or two and the VQ loses... a battle. Maybe a province. There's no reason for that VQ not to charge back into that same province the very next turn, regardless of how futile the odds seem to be against winning.

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In my games getting back to the same province would take awhile, even for a flyer. And those can be precious moments since I tend to play nations where I would have an army on the way to her capital.

Meanwhile my angels would be getting ahead of the game claiming the neighboring provinces. True its not a 1-on-1 win, more of a wear-down tactic. But it sounds like a good one.

[archaeolept]

well, the fatal flaw is that she is in a castle.

in fact, of course, all the VQ's provinces are castled in the total strat, so hit and run tactics are unlikely to accomplish much, other than perhaps draw down a few ghostriders or some such.

now, if you manage to actually stop the dominion push, well, then the VQ isn't that much of a threat anyways since she is very unlikely to be sent out of her dominion, except perhaps w/ an exceptionally powerful army.

now, if I have pearls, I tend to buy lots of angelic hosts, esp. as I usually have some sort of bless effect going. but they've never actually managed to bump into a VQ yet. They are fairly weak units, as well, and I think you'ld need a few squads to take down a kitted up VQ; if somehow you managed to find her hanging out in the open ground.

[ May 05, 2004, 23:05: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Blitz:

quote:

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Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?

The fatal flaw is you are down 50 astral pearls, probably an angel or two and the VQ loses... a battle. Maybe a province. There's no reason for that VQ not to charge back into that same province the very next turn, regardless of how futile the odds seem to be against winning.

Furthermore, I have my doubts as to if the strategy works. Maybe I'll test it out and see.

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Well that's why I would say you need to cast it several times on the same province... to keep casualties down... ideally you'd have her completely surrounded with flambeau weiding divine entities... I can't concieve of a way that a naked VQ could survive more than a turn or two in that.

And I'm not sure what equipment she could wear that would really help her... anything that raises her defense... but how many (13+13)x3 AP damage hits do you really need? 2? Boots of Quickness maybe, so she can throw up two buffs before she is surrounded... but a Charcoal Shield isn't that impressive against angels since thay are fire resistant(50)... if she had a decent weapon, she could certainly take down an Angel or two... but naked life drain isn't going to save her.

Oh, and they're SACRED... so if you have a decent bless, watch out!

Yeah, it's a lot of Astral pearls... but they don't go away, you'll still have them to beat her down again... but now you'll be able to script those Holy 4/Fire 3 Archangels...

The main problem I see would be dealing with "chaff"... which obviously needs to be examined.

[Pirateiam]

I currently have a game set up where I can pretty much try any non nation specific unit up against a VQ with any possible buffs or items. I have tested many units and combinations. So far my GoR'd Crusher has done well. Also devil dog piles work well also. One strategy that I have scrapped all together is any kind of missle units. I have tried multiple combinations of missle units and they just do not even scratch her. Even a 20 commander team with eye of aiming, justmans crossbows, quick boots etc could barely scratch her in 10 tries. If anyone has a combination of units to try against her let me know. I will try the Arch angels next and let you know how they fair in 10 attacks.

[Blitz]

Wow. Very impressive.

Even in +10 emor dominion, the angels wrecked her before she could buff. I had a few problems getting the angels to attack the right undead though. Even when Emor dosen't bring armies, there are usually a few skeletons lying around. While the angels kill any undead they swing at, they also get their asses handed to them in 1-2 hits even by skeletons. Without trying it, I imagine two Groups of them would be sufficient to take out a NAKED vq. This VQ had 0 experience, and only quickness, invuln, mistform, soul vortex, and breath of winter.

A non-naked VQ on the other hand is another matter entirely. What's the standard build for a tricked VQ these days?

Wraith Sword
Starshine Skullcap
Elemental Armor
Boots of the Messenger
Amulet of Magic Resistance
Pendant of Luck

I'll see how she does in all that. Get back to yas.