Play The World

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
See, as a Norfleet he was constantly soliciting information from each of Pkahar Njar's (his alias in our game) neigbors with questions such as "So what are you going to do about Caelum?" (Caelum was Pakhar's nation). "How is your war against Caelum going?" , "How are you going to attack Caelum now?". (all these are exact quotes)

I'm not going to enter into a debate about Norfleet's ethics on this, as it strikes me as a shade of gray.

However - given the early mutterings that Pakhar Njal was really Norfleet, and Stormbinder's repeatedly voiced suspicions of this, what does it tell you of certain people's intelligence and common sense, that they _kept_ talking to Norfleet about their strategies in this game???

(Note also that I'm uncertain whether Norfleet was "pumping" them for information - what I heard on the IRC channel sounded more like people eagerly, even desperately, seeking to talk with him for advice.)

And yes, I was paying attention, because.... I knew from fairly early on that Norfleet was Pakhar Njal. Didn't really matter to me because I was on the opposite corner from him. Didn't say anything because he'd told this to me in confidence - and honor, keeping my word, has always been more important to me than ethics.

Personally, I get sick of the instant, constant, bleating coalitions of the frightened clamoring for alliances against Ermor, and also against Norfleet and other "Norfleeting" players.

Maybe it's just me - but the day I beat someone, say Norfleet, I want it to be because of my strategies and skill, not because I joined a lynch mob to bring his downfall.

But I didn't think that PJ and norfleet are actually the same since Pakhar showed himself to be pretty mediocore player, making many stupid mistakes, and I though that Norfleet, despite all his faults, is at least an expert player. Blah!

Mediocre, hmmm? Why was there all the panic then? All the Messages to all of us insisting you needed help, as though the Beast was about to imminently swallow the earth if you didn't get Lances from one person, wraith swords from another, sappers bidded on by someone else?

Either he wasn't mediocre, or possibly my suspicions about these things were correct - the desperate need for alliance wasn't so much because it was needed to defeat PN, but because it would afford you the opportunity to grow to immense size, with gifts of magic gems and items, other people wasting their resources casting remote attack spells on someone they weren't in contact with, etc.

And - he made mistakes? You were talking about how you were able to take some of his provinces. About how you killed one of his Air Queens, I think. I never realized that not making mistakes would prevent a person from ever having one of their provinces taken or commanders killed.

You have to concentrate your forces and attempt to pick your battles, sometimes try to anticipate where the enemy will attack. Sometimes you anticipate correctly. Sometimes, you would have been better off calling the Psychic Friends hotline.

And finally, in closing - you do realize how amusing your incessant "STFU" statements to Norfleet were? "You aren't in that game - STFU!" Even when he commented to you, several times, "Cainehill knew something you didn't", you ignored him and again, "STFU". Hilarious.

(STFU is an acronym for "Shut the F--- Up", which some might consider a crude and rude thing to say to someone else, even when cloaked in a well known acronym.)

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Perhaps, except that I only asked him questions I already knew the answers to anyway.

You cannot seriously be suggesting that you knew the answer to the question:
"So, what do you plan to do about Caelum?" ?

All of this could simply have been avoided by a declaration of your identity. Again, my apologies if I've misunderstood the scenario.

quote:

---

You have somewhat misunderstood the scenario: Namely, that the entire point of the exercise was to observe how they reacted to an alleged third party employing my strategy, and how quickly recognized it would be.

---

The point of the exercise from your perspective is not in question. The question is whether the behaviour, whatever its motivation, was ethical.

I've just read the Gone Gold material and have to say that I'm appalled. I was originally prepared to give you the benefit of my doubt, but not any more.

Many people regard this kind of behaviour as dishonest, at the very least.

quote:

---

I am not the only person to have entered games under an anonymous alias. I do not see anything unusual about this.

---

It's not unusual.
Nor is it the issue, and I think you know that.

It is now clear to me that in this "Fire and Ice" game, you perpetrated a deception outside the context of diplomacy. It was a deception that could have given you an advantage in the game - whether it actually did deliver any advantage is irrelevant. In other words, you cheated.

Please do not join any games I start in the future.

[Tris]

and honor, keeping my word, has always been more important to me than ethics.

Um...Keeping your word would be a form of ethics, wouldn't it?

Besides which "honor" and the kind of behaviour that apparently went on in this sad episode are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps the other players continued to talk to Norfleet because they assumed that there was no way anyone would ask for information in the manner that he did, when they were actually playing in the game.

Having read the GoneGold thread, I think I'm with Zap.

PLEASE explain all this, Norfleet. I'd much rather think everyone was a nice person...

[Firebreath]

Oh dear....lol.

Originally posted by Tris:

quote:

---

and honor, keeping my word, has always been more important to me than ethics.

Um...Keeping your word would be a form of ethics, wouldn't it?

---

I think the difference here is in personal values and generally accepted western societal values. Ethics, as far as I am aware, doesn't come into play when you're playing a game! I.e. games give you the opportunity of being a rascal, theif, murdering, lying son of a mother - when in fact you are quite the opposite (one would hope) professionally.

But going back to what seems to be the problem here. I havn't read the ice and fire, but let me see if i can get this straight (correct me, succinctly, if i'm wrong):

Norfleet is accused (a big word) of the dastardly crimes of:
- Deceiving others about his true identity
* I can see nothing wrong with that - missdirection and missinformation are perfectly valid things to do in war. That's what spies, illusions, bluffs, etc are all for. Norfleet's just taken it slightly further.
- Lieing
* Now there's a serious crime. I only try to lie when things are serious and I have no other choice. But if someone chooses to lie in a game - so what? What does it matter?

But the biggest allegation of all (correct me if i'm wrong) is of:
- Breaking delusions as to the infalliability and unsheakable integrity of human nature.
* Well, this kind of thing hurts. You start to lose faith in your own core values. It's not nice. But surely, it's much better that it happens in a game, than in a serious situation?

Maybe Norfleet lied. Ok. Maybe he decieved you. Fine. Maybe he even broke your faith in something you held dear. If that's the case, nourish your hatred of him. Plan your vengeance. Keep it close to your heart. Try out new strategies. When you are ready - you can face him. For the best effect, as Cainenhill suggested - face him 1 vs 1, so that the true power and satisfaction of sweet revenge can be brought to bear, that of having beaten a rascal honourably.

But as Norfleet said about 5 times - there is a game to be played! I don't know where Graeme's accusations came from, though as far as I'm concerned Norfleet doesn't need to cheat to win a game . There is a big, big difference between cheating and behaving like a rascal. If the sole premise of not wanting to play this game is that:
1)Norfleet said he would modify the map (bearing in mind he could have modified it to his own advantage without saying anything)
2)Norfleet acted in a manner you found distastefull in a different game.
Then I do not believe there is valid reason for believing that Norfleet would stoop to cheating (which has a very closed definition. Things like lieing, deception, etc do not come into it).

Now, if no one has any further objections, could we please get this matter out of the way and play - we've been waiting for 2 weeks just to start this game, god knows how long it's going to take to finish it...

[ May 24, 2004, 14:50: Message edited by: Firebreath ]

[Tuidjy]

I do not want a restart. I do not see what that
would change except waste some more time. I do
no believe that Norfleet has done more than
disable a few starting locations, and even if he
had given himself every single spell and gem at
the start, I would still rather play the game than
not. I cannot understand why it matters. I do
not get 1cm shorter every time I fail to win a
game of Dominions II.

As for him playing under a different name, and
talking with other people about the game, I find
it slightly off-taste, but more because of what
it says about his need to hear about himself,
than because of an in-game advantage.

So, lets get on with it?

[Vynd]

While I understand the sentiments of the people who want to just get on with this game already, I think you're overlooking a serious problem: Graeme, I think Zapmeister, and quite possibly others, don't want to play anymore. Better to restart without them, I think, than continue as is, have them drop out, and end up with lots of AI players right out of the gate.

Nor do I think it is particularly unreasonable of people to decide they don't want to play with Norfleet after hearing about this other incident. He lied. He behaved unsportingly. He abused other people's trust. People have every right to be upset about that sort of behavior and decide not to associate with someone who engages in it. Really, it's only to be expected. And even for folks like me who had no stake in this Fire and Ice game, it makes it rather difficult to trust the man.

[Reverend Zombie]

Originally posted by Tris:
PLEASE explain all this, Norfleet. I'd much rather think everyone was a nice person...

Please see my signature.