Good game, but....the AI is very bad.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Vynd:
I like Dom II a lot, and I think that SP is fun. But difficult? No. Would I like to see the SP AI improved? Yes! Do I think its going to happen? No. But do proteus and his brother and whoever else have the right to complain about it? Heck yeah!

Well I was with you right up to the end. As far as their right to complain, ok. Doesnt that mean others have a right to say "shut up" if its hurting our chances of getting the AI fixed?

And actually I wouldnt use "right to complain" too often on a board that is owned by someone and provided for a specific reason. Doing damage to the reason can wash those "rights" away fast. This isnt usenet newsGroups.

[ May 09, 2004, 01:41: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[delacroix]

Originally posted by Molog:
I know AOW, MOM have horrible cheating AI's. Most players don't seem to mind though.

I certainly don't mind, Master of Magic / Orion were funnest and toughest at the impossible settings even though the AI receieved significant bonuses at those levels .

Certainly if a player didn't want the CPU opponents to cheat they could just play at normal difficulty instead.

[Leif_-]

Originally posted by Vynd:
But do proteus and his brother and whoever else have the right to complain about it? Heck yeah!

This is going to be a rant, just so that you're warned:

There's complaining, and there's complaining incessantly, ignoring the explanations and arguments against their complaints.

They certainly don't have a right to demand that Illwinter does this or does that, which is what they are doing. Unlike what they seem to think, computer games are bought as-is. Caveat emptor. Any support ontop of what you get in the box is a bonus and a matter of good service, rather than something you're entitled to.

In my opinion Illwinter has done a great job supporting the community around the game - remember that for most other games "patch" usually means "bug fixes" rather than "game improvements" which is what we've gotten used to. That makes it especially grating to see them harp upon Illwinter as if Illwinter hadn't given the community any kind of support or service at all, just because Illwinter hasn't prioritized their unreasonable requests.

So they paid $50 for the game. So what? The Dominions AI is not any weaker than what's common for full-price strategy games, so it's not like they could really expect something better for that price anyway. Sure, there are games out there with better AIs, but then it's not reasonable to compare Dominions 2 only with the best AI games out there.

They are also both still playing Dominions 2 after several months, so they can hardly argue that they didn't get their monies worth or that the AI makes the game unplayable in single player.

So, no. I don't think they've really got a right to complain. They've gotten what they paid for, and more; they have been explained why it's unreasonable to demand heavy improvements in the AI; they've been told that Illwinter doesn't have the resources a major software house has, and they've been told that the Dominion AI isn't really weaker than what's standard for similar games. Yet still they persist in their complaining and, frankly, whining.

[mlepinski]

I'll certainly agree that the dominions 2 AI isn't perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as threads like this would indicate.

In particular, it is definately possible to play a challenging game against the AI, you just need to adjust the map to put the AI in an advantagous position.

I find the most significant AI shortcoming to be the fact that the AI doesn't build forts. (The AI builds much more effective armies when it has multiple forts to recruit troops from). Therefore, I often play games where I start the AI with 2 forts (or even 3). Additionally, I'll stick some extra independent forts on the map for the AI to conquer.

In my opinion, playing a single game against 4 pairs of allied 'Difficult' AIs (8 AIs total) each starting with 2 forts on a map scattered with independent forts is an interesting single-player experience which is much more challenging than a 'standard' single-player game of Dominions.

So, even though the AI isn't perfect, I am satisfied because it's good enough to give me a challenging game under the right circumstances.

Just my 2 cents,
- Matt Lepinski :->

[Wikd Thots]

WIMPS!
You payed for the game. What diff if its one poor programmer? You can demand anything you want. I want to control units in fights like my other games. I want to save games so I can load if things are crap. I want cheat codes. And I want to play with my friends if we buy one disc.
I want all of that and I want it NOW because it should already be in it like the other games that cost this much!

[Darryl]

Ok, I generally lurk around here but I just have to say something here. I find the topic of this thread to be completely false and the way the concerns are given to be completely offensive. Point blank. To say that...

Originally posted by proteus:

A dev comment that it might be fixed...however they cannot guarantee it after lot of months..made me pissed.
So sorry for the tone of my Posts, but that made me very angry.

Pisses me off. Yes, I know you apologized for the tone, but it's the concept that you were pissed because something you wanted wasn't improved in the game as if they owe it to you to do that. You paid $50, so they should improve the AI (probably the HARDEST aspect of the programming) and do it NOW. I mean it's been 6 months, right? And you're pissed? They actually show up on the Boards and implement player suggestions that have nothing to do with bug fixes (like modding) and you're pissed off and feel like you've been robbed? You can get these changes without buying the "Dominions II Gold Pack" and you're upset because your changes weren't there? Like Illwinter/Shrapnel have "misled" you somehow? Please!

I think Illwinter is a better name than "two guys with computers and another guy poking his head in every so often" but as I understand it that's what it is. And these 2 guys do what major companies have been unable to AND respond to fans directly and you're angry. Not "wishing it would change", but "angry".

Now the very idea that someone has been gipped by buying this game is ludicrous, and to even hint at a suggestion that they "falsely advertised" the AI is beyond words.

Now I know something about programming (I've worked as a software engineer and, more than that, I did the Online grimorie ) and I can say that AI programming is difficult. To insinuate that "well it's easy just weight and have them do such and such" is insulting, as if they're in Tahiti drinking magaritas with their ill-gotten Dominions funds when they should take the 10 minutes to improve the AI. I mean how many games are supposed to provide a significant challenge after playing them for a few months?

Sorry for the rant, but I just think this is by far The Best Game I've Played bar none. I also think the devs are extremely accessible and responsive, and to suggest they "cheated" someone is completely out of control to me.

[Slygar]

Originally posted by delacroix:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Molog:
I know AOW, MOM have horrible cheating AI's. Most players don't seem to mind though.

I certainly don't mind, Master of Magic / Orion were funnest and toughest at the impossible settings even though the AI receieved significant bonuses at those levels .

Certainly if a player didn't want the CPU opponents to cheat they could just play at normal difficulty instead.

---

I agree with this.. let the AI cheat. Gem, income bonuses, randomly appearing forts, permenent +3 luck, +300 design points (for scales), whatever. Only on higher difficulty levels, of course.

Heh, a neat idea might be to have a moving bonus to AI scales, meaning that at normal difficulty all their scales go with the normal AI creation routines. At hard, they get all scales as normal, but with a +1 bonus or something? +3 at Impossible?

[ May 09, 2004, 06:54: Message edited by: Slygar ]