success with Mictlan in MP?

[sergex]

the drawback to this strat btw, is basically if you are stuck next to a really agressive opponent with a fire-blessing army or if you get screwed with bad neighbor provinces or you can't get mercs early on due to poor mercs becoming available or if other people outbid you. If you can't get your blood economy working by turn 10 you are in big trouble if someone decides to take the provinces around you. You can easily become trapped and since you national troops are so weak you won't be able to field much offense without blood slaves or good mercs.

However, most MP opponents are docile or quick to make peace treaties (because usually the people that get mired in a drawn out battle early on leave themselves open to attack from another front and get destroyed easily) so you can usually overcome a bad start once you get 2 or 3 blood provinces coming in. There isn't much in the way of an anti-devil horde start that I know of. Once you get to the point that you have a bunch of Devil Commanders and lots of soul contracts pumping out Devils every turn you are in a position to win. It's just a matter of getting to that point, and playing smart diplomatically and placing castles as quickly as you can to discourage enemy attacks.

[tinkthank]

Hmn.

Not purchasing troops as a central element to success in MP -- I suppose this makes total sense, and explains also my complete failures (even in SP) --- it just feels so.... wrong. Has there been any talk of somehow increasing the cost of blood magic summoners while somehow strengthening Mictlan's troops? (This is not really a "balance" question, just one of flavor and feel: I think all units in the game should have a use and be used, at least sometimes, and if some things are never used, that is bad -- but a whole nation's troops almost never being used? Argh...)

[Teraswaerto]

Mictlan can use troops. The sacred ones are quite good with a blessing, especially early on. The cheap (in both gold and resources) warriors with slings can be boosted with Flaming Arrows and Mass Protection, for example.

They'll never be more than a side dish to Blood magic, but that's just the way Mictlan works. It can't be changed without making it into a whole new nation (though a no blood theme "Reign of the Lawgiver" would be interesting to see).

[ May 11, 2004, 16:53: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
edit: Graeme tolerates Mictlan troops? I'd like to see him defend them.

All of Mictlan's normal troops are very low cost in gold. The 8 resource ones can fill much the same role as C'Tis elite warriors. The 14 resource troops have enough survivability to take an arrow without necessarily dying, which is mostly what you need early game. The sacred warriors are all quite useful, although the sun warriors are too slow to move to the front. Jaguar warriors make decent flankers, and can take down high protection units fairly easily. Eagle warriors are great for swarming archers. Slaves come in huge numbers once you get a couple dozen tribal kings capturing them, and they make a great cannon fodder layer to protect your more expensive troops. Mass protection is also highly useful, since it boosts their protection to the point where they won't die quite as quickly. I tend to take a Mausoleum with Mictlan, but mostly for the gold bonus from administration.

[sergex]

Well since Mictlan both gets +3 blood slaves a turn and the Bind Fiend spell to start off, you can think of the Fiends as the national unit of Mictlan. Even just using the +3 innate slaves a turn you can summon a Fiend every other turn just using a Blood 2 Mage. You can choose to recruit some slaves with a King but I find that they route right away and that it's not much use to round them up from the neighboring provinces. They aren't useless, but I choose not to use them for early expansion.

I'm not big on blessing strategies usually, but I could see Mictlan being used that way. There are probably better nations if you just want to just use sacred units, like the Tuatha Man or Marignon flagellants though.

[PvK]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Hmn.

Not purchasing troops as a central element to success in MP -- I suppose this makes total sense, and explains also my complete failures (even in SP) --- it just feels so.... wrong. Has there been any talk of somehow increasing the cost of blood magic summoners while somehow strengthening Mictlan's troops? (This is not really a "balance" question, just one of flavor and feel: I think all units in the game should have a use and be used, at least sometimes, and if some things are never used, that is bad -- but a whole nation's troops almost never being used? Argh...)

You're giving too much weight to the comments of people who speak as though "not the best" is the definition of the word "useless". Not buying any troops is a possible approach I suppose, but definitely not the only one, nor one I would recommend. Mictlan troops are not all that bad, especially if you buy and use them appropriately. They can certainly be used to take out weaker independents, and a flying demon army is stronger when combined with flying Eagle Warriors, for instance.

PvK

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
They can certainly be used to take out weaker independents, and a flying demon army is stronger when combined with flying Eagle Warriors, for instance.

Well, actually, a flying devil army isn't stronger when combined with flying Eagle Warriors, because Eagle Warriors are not capable of strategic flight, and thus your army's mobility is hamstrung. Furthermore, in combat, the Eagle Warriors are likely to catch fire from proximity to the devils' heat auras.

As a result, the Eagle Warriors end up becoming an expensive and bothersome fiasco. Did I mention that they are capitol only, and not as mobile as the devils or fiends? That same cash could have been spent on another priest to hunt for more blood slaves or summon more devils.

While it's certainly possible to enhance the effectiveness of the Mictlan sacreds through the use of a strong bless, this is expensive in points, and has a short obsolescence date, as Mictlan troops quickly fade from effectiveness when blood summons become available in force, and cannot be easily adapted to other roles as better units, such as Vanir, can. Thus a blessing choice for Mictlan is a very short-term decision which you may come to regret.

Basically, I feel you are better off sticking with blood summons to back your army, and using only slaves to patrol provinces you are hunting in so you have to give up less in taxes, so you can buy more priests and hunt more blood.