Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet

[The Meal]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
While it is normally mandatory policy that I don't play staff

I'm curious as to your reasons for this limitation. If you've talked about this elsewhere, a link would be fine. (Or if you don't care to further comment on it at all, that's okay by me, too -- this is just a curiousity.)

Thanks,
~The Meal

Originally posted by Arryn:
So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players. There are real, serious, longstanding bugs in Dom2 that have yet to be fixed while IW devotes its attention to silencing the whining of a very vocal and tiny percentage of its customers, many of which are grossly challenged in the strategic-thinking department and should go back to playing the mindless twitch games that they're suited for.

Cross Platform Compatibility and Adjustable Battle speed do not fall into the fix Category then? Or the fact that most of the things that are 'fixed' were discussed before the game was released as something that should/could/would be fixed in the future? (Elemental Armor being one of them)

If a game is less fun after a patch than before, then that patch's nerfs are counterproductive. E&B and SWG (especially SWG) failed that test miserably. After all, people play games to have fun, and not to just fatten the bank accounts of the companies running the games. So far, I cannot say that about Dom 2, but as I said, the trend is disturbing.

It's always going to be less fun for those who never had an issue before a change. Some people have fun playing with sticks, so when people start playing with paintguns suddenly it's 'no fun' to them and they feel 'wronged'. It's a perception issue. The current trend of fixing things that need to be fixed (I.E. Themes, bugs, inconsistancies and in part, balance).

If Clams and Castles were nerfed I might feel the same way, but as it stands now, all I see are people who were burned by games in the past pushing those feelings on a game that hasn't. Negative perception will always be just that. If this was Atari or Troika, you could have a track record of keeping things broke, shipping out unfinished product just for the cash, then leaving it virtually unsupported and without communication.

I personally very little faith in developers (in general) on a released product because of disregarding mentality. But once a developer shows me they do commit to the things they promise I am okay with their effort and willing to cut them a little slack. Others may not feel that way, they may feel that their 49.95 or 64.95 or 39.95 entitles them to make business decisions for a design team and the game they purchased and got their money's worth out of demands to be fixed on their terms or not fixed as the case may be. I just happen to not be in that particular Category.

[ June 24, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: Zen ]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Having played the E&B and SWG MMOs,

Also I do believe MMO's are a different kind of beast. An altogether bigger, uglier and in a different Category than I feel Dom2 is in. Not saying I haven't played them, on the contrary, and I know exactly what you are saying and has been said for every MMO past and previous, probably can be said of MUD's as well.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Arryn:
So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players.

You seem to be in a pessimistic mood today. ;-)

If you look back at the units and themes that were changed from 2.08 onwards, the list of improvements is much longer than the list of nerfs.

And to my knowledge the only nerfs that fall into the "because we felt like it" Category are these ones:

* Freak Lord size 6 -> 5.
* Atlantian scout protection 4 -> 2.
* Witch doc, research 5 -> 3 and cost 90 -> 80.

If that's what you call a trend, its effect looks rather unsignificant.

[ June 24, 2004, 16:35: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by The Meal:
I'm curious as to your reasons for this limitation. If you've talked about this elsewhere, a link would be fine. (Or if you don't care to further comment on it at all, that's okay by me, too -- this is just a curiousity.)

The reason why I do not play staffers is very simple: If you ever manage to beat one, you can bet your *** that whatever you did is going to be nerfed into the dirt. While I may suspend this for developers I actually have faith in, Illwinter is no longer one of these.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
If you look back at the units and themes that were changed from 2.08 onwards, the list of improvements is much longer than the list of nerfs.

I agree, and I have not implied otherwise.

If that's what you call a trend, its effect looks rather unsignificant.

It's significant insofar as IW is devoting time to trivialities (another word for something "insignificant") rather than spending whatever time it took to do those nerfs/tweaks to fix some of the longstanding bugs that have been listed in the bugs thread. I'm not worried about the nerfs in and of themselves (unlike Norfleet, who IMO takes the nerfing entirely too personally), but that they are doing them at all. IMO, and it's just that, IMO, IW has a limited amount of dev time and IMO it's best spent on real bugs. Zen (in fanboi mode) points to some of the bugs they've fixed but misses the point. The point is the bugs IW has not fixed (as yet) ... which might have been fixed if they were not distracted dealing with appeasing whiners and (IMO) wasting time with nerfs.

IMO, unless there is a gross play-balance issue (and I've yet to see any in Dom 2, even as far back as 2.02), the dev priority should be fixing bugs. After nearly all bugs are squashed, then they can have the luxury of tweaking stuff that isn't outright broken. None of the nerfs post-2.02 were necessary now. They could have waited. The game has other, more serious issues that (IMO) should be worked on first. When you are fixing a house, you deal with the foundation and roof before cosmetic things like paint and landscaping. Nerfs are cosmetic (IMO).

In fairness to IW, they have fixed many, many bugs. And they have great customer support and are nice people to talk to. But there are still plenty of bugs crawling around.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
The reason why I do not play staffers is very simple: If you ever manage to beat one, you can bet your *** that whatever you did is going to be nerfed into the dirt.

I have yet to see an exception to this rule. Game company staff always seem to believe that if you can "beat them at their own game" then the game must be flawed, rather than it being the staffer's inferiority at play. Very few people can overcome their ego, recognize their limitations, and admit that someone else might actually be sharper than themselves (be it due to superior experience, intellect, or both).