drain life has no MR check??

[Tuidjy]

I think that there are two separate issues, here:
1. Should Life Drain have a saving throw, or be
otherwise rebalanced.
2. Should Life Drain be moved to a different
magic school.

Lets not confuse the two.

Personally, I am opposed to moving it to Water,
because I think it fits with Death.

As for giving it a saving throw, I think that is
a good idea. Hell, as far as I am concerned,
there is no reason that no Amulet of Life Holding
is present in the game. There should be
resistance to Death magic just as there is
resistance to fire.

Maybe then we will see less Wraith/Hell swords and
Soul Vertices, which, at least for me, are a must
have on everyone who every gets into hand to hand.

As for Water magic, lets give it fatigue control.
Call it 'fluidity', and have it zero the natural
encumbrance. Armour will still hunder casting...
By the way, I am not so sure Water is underpowered
as it is. Quickness and Clams, by themselves,
make it quite desirable.

[Vynd]

I agree with Tuidjy. Some sort of immunity or resistance to death spells ala an Amulet of Hold Life would be nice. Or how about a magic item that makes life draining attacks backfire! That'd be neat, I think. Failing that, however, some sort of saving throw for the Drain Life spell and similar stuff would be good. But the issue of whether or not the Water school should have better spells doesn't really come into it.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:
As for giving it a saving throw, I think that is a good idea.

I think it's a terrible idea. There's no reason to reduce its usefulness, since it is no more powerful than many other spells that are out there.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by rabelais:
[QB]Um... this is my point. DE are already tough targets, they don't need Drain Life to be balanced.

I take it you've never played against a competent C'Tis player then, since sauromancers are far more common, and much, much cheaper than dusk elders. A sauromancer that can cast drain life costs 180 gold and 10 death gems. A dusk elder to do the same is 30 death gems. You can produce three times as many death 4 sauromancers as death 4 dusk elders for the same cost.

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I take it you've never played against a competent C'Tis player then, since sauromancers are far more common, and much, much cheaper than dusk elders. A sauromancer that can cast drain life costs 180 gold and 10 death gems. A dusk elder to do the same is 30 death gems. You can produce three times as many death 4 sauromancers as death 4 dusk elders for the same cost.

Actually, I have.

I'm aware that Ctis has death spamming advantages... I used to play in Argitoth's games,... damn nails everywhere.

I hadn't posted in some time because the thread had gone off markedly from where I started it.

My argument was that death is a very powerful path, and that ermor's munchkin quotient was already quite high, so perhaps moving the decidedly (even uniquely, given the prec 100 long range w/fatigue profit+no MR save) useful spell, (which I never suggested be nerfed)to a more underarmed path (e.g. water) might be appropriate.

It was norfleet who suggested DE's were nigh indestuctable by assassins, and he wasn't making a cost optimization claim, so I'm not sure what your point is....

It is true that Ctis can use the spell more cheaply, but I never would have suggested otherwise.

Ctis has different constraints...

I don't necessarily mind a spell that lets ermor skeleton spam indefinitely, (it is ermor after all) but when it incidentally provides *extremely* good one on one protection... I begin to wonder if it isn't overdone.

If something is so attractive you *always* use it... then it might need to be looked at, or at least explained to those who think it too good to be true.

I was surprised it had no probabilistic (i.e. OE++) defence of any kind, and asked for comment from the grognards.

I said ermor/death didn't need the help, but that's my interpertation of Dom2 sociology, not a claim that ermor gets the cheapest drain life capable death magi.

My argument was that death magi having a monopoly on the spell didn't seem to me to helpful, given the current thanatropism in MP games.

I don't think castle spamming is helpful either, but it's quite effective, particularly for those nations that don't need pop for recruitment.


Rabe, who is familiar with Sauromancer Spam.

[Huzurdaddi]

If something is so attractive you *always* use it... then it might need to be looked at

That's pretty much the definition of "overpowered" within the context of a game. You make a compelling argument.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:

quote:

---

If something is so attractive you *always* use it... then it might need to be looked at

That's pretty much the definition of "overpowered" within the context of a game. You make a compelling argument.

---

But only if its true of all nations. This game doesnt do balance at a nation-to-nation level like many other games. Its a rotating balance like Stars and MoM

[Cheezeninja]

Always using something is not the definition of overpowered by a long shot.

if i have water magic, i always use quickness. But not many suggest thats overpowered. If i have astral, i always use astral shield. If i have blood magic i always use devils.

Always using something doesnt make it overpowered, it just makes it one of the benchmark spells for that path (and yes, death has many of those). If anything makes lifedrain overpowered, its just the fact that it cannot be resisted.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cheezeninja:
If anything makes lifedrain overpowered, its just the fact that it cannot be resisted.

Lifedrain doesn't accomplish very much, as far as the caster is concerned, when employed against lifeless targets: While damage is caused, the caster gets nothing back.

The fact that it still causes both regular and fatigue damage, even against lifeless targets, of course, makes it extremely attractive even there, even if the attacker gets nothing.

It was norfleet who suggested DE's were nigh indestuctable by assassins, and he wasn't making a cost optimization claim, so I'm not sure what your point is....

Mages in general can be very difficult to kill, particularly if their paths are offensively oriented: Death is particularly good at this, as it doesn't really have anything that's "useless" that the mage can cast, unlike other paths.

To further exacerbate the issue, of course, Dusk Elders are also physically powerful, being possessed of a high defense stat, good hitpoints, etherealness, and a lifedrain attack.

The spell "Drain Life" is actually D4, and out of the reach of a stock Dusk Elder unless its random is in Death. This is not a concern which makes DEs difficult to kill, although killing staffed Elders becomes that much more difficult because of this.

Nor is a Dusk Elder "nigh indestructible": C'tissian Empoisoners do a good job of assassinating undead commanders....but Dusk Elders are mean, period.

Rabe, who is familiar with Sauromancer Spam.

Sauromancers aren't easy to kill either, but they do lack the Dusk Elder's host of innate defenses and potent attacks.