Death & Blood a little borked?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
These two paths SEEM to have some of the best summons in the game at somewhat low research levels.

Blood is almost entirely a summoning school, so it's not that surprising that it has some of the better summoned units. The various level 4 blood summons are actually quite expensive in both blood slaves and mage time. Each casting requires both a level 2 or greater blood mage to cast, plus another blood mage to find the slaves for every single casting.

The death summons are powerful, but not _that_ powerful when you consider their weaknesses. The commander type summons can defeat many normal troops, but this also requires that you put a very large amount of gems into them.

Nature magic also has very good summons. Lamias, for example, are extremely hard to kill, and can be summoned in very large quantities at a low cost.

However they also have excellent higher level summons as well, ex: demon lords, ghost riders, tartarus gate.

Tartarian gate is only really useful if the nation is able to cast and keep gift of health, and has a large enough nature gem income to cast gift of reason every turn. If that's the case, then they have about 20+ nature gems per turn, which should be able to cause a fair amount of damage. The various demon lords are powerful, but also require a major expenditure in gems to make it safe enough to actually use them in combat.

Now it is true that blood has pretty bad combat magic. But death has excellent combat magic. Eg: Life Drain, Soul Vortex, raise dead. All excellent.

Death has excellent offensive combat magic, but almost no defensive capability at all. Most of the death spells only act to overcome the extreme fragility of most undead troops.

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
Ah scarcasm. Cute. Yes I understand that Air has a number of very powerful spells. As a matter of fact many people have commented that air combat magics are perhaps too powerful or do use another word abusive.

Well certainly they are entitled to their opinion. If you want to use Abusive for "Extremely Useful for a Wide Variety of Playstyles" then I guess. If you wanted to say that "It's not Castling it's Air Magic that's the problem" or any other number of comments, you may. However, since Air also has a wide variety of uses, Earth, has a wide variety of uses, even Nature, Astral and gasp, Water and Fire have a wide variety of uses. Then I would say that you don't need to take the customary rout of "Need to be nerfed" but "X (insert the one magic path you don't get routinely owned by) might need more versatility/power/spells that make me lose often.

Which combat magics would those be, by the way? Specifically? Or is it only one combat magic that you are thinking of in particular that has, since Dom1, been considered 'abusive'.

However the "problem" with air is not that most of the spells are busted, but rather that a few are very efficient (eg: Wrathful Skies, Lighting Orb ). While I think that the problem with Blood and death is more pervasive.

IF: there is a problem. HOW: Is it pervasive and DOES: It come at a cost that is equitable to it's power and FINALLY: What nations and how does this impact the balance of those nations who rely on said magics.

Of course some people simply like the status quo. I would imagine Zen that you argued like heck against nerfing the VQ.

I would imagine that you have no concept of what you are arguing for or against with statements like this. If you want to drag the VQ debate up and whether or not I argued for (yes) and against (yes) it, then that is fine.

It is an inevitable course of the game that people will feel ANYTHING needs nerfing because of their own personal reasons. Most of which stem from their inability to use them, cope against them, or abuse of them to win games.

Edit: It seems to me the learning curve hasn't quite hit the "number of gems to feasibly create an 'abusive' enviroment" for a number of people.

[ June 02, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Huzurdaddi]

However, since Air also has a wide variety of uses, Earth, has a wide variety of uses, even Nature, Astral and gasp, Water and Fire have a wide variety of uses. Then

I have not seen many Posts about combat tactics which are considered "extremely effective" using the earth, water, astral or fire domains.

I do see a number of Posts extolling the virtues of many air combat magics ( orb lighting, wrathful skies, storm to name a few ). I have seen many Posts extolling the virtues of both death combat's summons and their combat magics. I have seen many Posts which explain in mind numbing detail how to gain a blood economy and how to exploit, utilize if you prefer, the very powerful summons in blood.

There are few mentions on this board titled: "How to dominate all with the raw naked power of Nature!11!."

I simply notice a trend on the Boards which is that people comment frequently about spells which are in the death and to a smaller amount in the blood domain. In the few multilayer games I have played I see quite a number of death and blood summons, but I see few of the other magics. Thus I began to wonder: is this simply play style ( or post style ) or perhaps is there some fundamental imbalance between the different schools of magic?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I have not seen many Posts about combat tactics which are considered "extremely effective" using the earth, water, astral or fire domains.

I suggest that you might want to ask Piratejam about just how effective fire magic can be.

There are few mentions on this board titled: "How to dominate all with the raw naked power of Nature!11!."

Nature is a support school, and can act as a force multiplier for your troops. It can be an extremely large multiplier under the right circumstances.

In the few multilayer games I have played I see quite a number of death and blood summons, but I see few of the other magics.

This is probably because death and blood have more summons than other schools. It's not surprising that you see more of them when there simply _are_ more.

Death is a powerful school of magic, but then, so is nature.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

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Of course some people simply like the status quo. I would imagine Zen that you argued like heck against nerfing the VQ.

I would imagine that you have no concept of what you are arguing for or against with statements like this. If you want to drag the VQ debate up and whether or not I argued for (yes) and against (yes) it, then that is fine.

[/QB]

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Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong Zen, but unless you have argued "for" and "against" VQ in different times (and have been changing your opinion in between), it sounds like you mostly argued just for the sake of agueing?...

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong Zen, but unless you have argued "for" and "against" VQ in different times (and have been changing your opinion in between), it sounds like you mostly argued just for the sake of agueing?...

No I argued that it should be adjusted; but that the reasoning was not sound and still is not. Unfortunately you have a very bad memory so I don't fault you for it. The reason that the VQ was 'nerfed' was because of it's priceworthiness vs Liches. Having nothing to do with it's combat effectiveness or "Abuse" as some people would wrongly catagorize it.

[ June 03, 2004, 00:27: Message edited by: Zen ]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I have not seen many Posts about combat tactics which are considered "extremely effective" using the earth, water, astral or fire domains.

Well, just because their are not very many Posts about them, suddenly they are not 'effective'? Perhaps, but I don't see it as so. I rarely see many Posts at all about any school being 'extremely effective' and detailing how and why but more of "What do you think is the Best" Posts, which Blood and Death fall into categories of with certain aspects of their magic.

I do see a number of Posts extolling the virtues of many air combat magics ( orb lighting, wrathful skies, storm to name a few ). I have seen many Posts extolling the virtues of both death combat's summons and their combat magics.

That is true but just because something has virtues (Air, yes, having many), does not mean it's overpowered. Storm is extremely effective, I don't think anyone is saying counter to that. Wrathful Skies is extremely effective. Orb Lighting, with the appropriate setup, is extremely effective. It is very well rounded and has one of the most universally useful abilities (Flying). I would say that Air is probably the best of magics taken as a whole. Does that mean I think it should be nerfed? No. Certain things may need to be modified (Wrathful Skies for example) but not the entire school. Death is the same way. It has a unique aspect of having summons that have a universal trait (No Encumberance with Equipment) so it is more versatile what you can and cannot put on their commander summons. It also holds a very useful ability (Immortal). Does Death stack up to Air? No. Does Death have the capability to be abused in the right hands? Definitely.

I have seen many Posts which explain in mind numbing detail how to gain a blood economy and how to exploit, utilize if you prefer, the very powerful summons in blood

This is because it's a mind numbingly hard concept to grasp for certain Groups of people, and the understanding of having a universal income of "Blood Gems" no matter the sites/provinces (in general). So in order to better help people understand they post ways to use it.

I simply notice a trend on the Boards which is that people comment frequently about spells which are in the death and to a smaller amount in the blood domain. In the few multilayer games I have played I see quite a number of death and blood summons, but I see few of the other magics. Thus I began to wonder: is this simply play style ( or post style ) or perhaps is there some fundamental imbalance between the different schools of magic?

Part of it is a fundamental imbalance in the magics and nations that use them. Certain nations must, in order to be competitive, use their Magic to it's fullest potential. Thus relying extremely heavily on one school (Blood for Example, or Death/Air) as the mid/late game progresses.

Astral is the only school that this might not be the obvious case. Only because the Summons are not price-friendly but the Item Forging and Combat Spells are extremely powerful.