Death & Blood a little borked?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
These two paths SEEM to have some of the best summons in the game at somewhat low research levels.

Blood is almost entirely a summoning school, so it's not that surprising that it has some of the better summoned units. The various level 4 blood summons are actually quite expensive in both blood slaves and mage time. Each casting requires both a level 2 or greater blood mage to cast, plus another blood mage to find the slaves for every single casting.

The death summons are powerful, but not _that_ powerful when you consider their weaknesses. The commander type summons can defeat many normal troops, but this also requires that you put a very large amount of gems into them.

Nature magic also has very good summons. Lamias, for example, are extremely hard to kill, and can be summoned in very large quantities at a low cost.

However they also have excellent higher level summons as well, ex: demon lords, ghost riders, tartarus gate.

Tartarian gate is only really useful if the nation is able to cast and keep gift of health, and has a large enough nature gem income to cast gift of reason every turn. If that's the case, then they have about 20+ nature gems per turn, which should be able to cause a fair amount of damage. The various demon lords are powerful, but also require a major expenditure in gems to make it safe enough to actually use them in combat.

Now it is true that blood has pretty bad combat magic. But death has excellent combat magic. Eg: Life Drain, Soul Vortex, raise dead. All excellent.

Death has excellent offensive combat magic, but almost no defensive capability at all. Most of the death spells only act to overcome the extreme fragility of most undead troops.

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
Ah scarcasm. Cute. Yes I understand that Air has a number of very powerful spells. As a matter of fact many people have commented that air combat magics are perhaps too powerful or do use another word abusive.

Well certainly they are entitled to their opinion. If you want to use Abusive for "Extremely Useful for a Wide Variety of Playstyles" then I guess. If you wanted to say that "It's not Castling it's Air Magic that's the problem" or any other number of comments, you may. However, since Air also has a wide variety of uses, Earth, has a wide variety of uses, even Nature, Astral and gasp, Water and Fire have a wide variety of uses. Then I would say that you don't need to take the customary rout of "Need to be nerfed" but "X (insert the one magic path you don't get routinely owned by) might need more versatility/power/spells that make me lose often.

Which combat magics would those be, by the way? Specifically? Or is it only one combat magic that you are thinking of in particular that has, since Dom1, been considered 'abusive'.

However the "problem" with air is not that most of the spells are busted, but rather that a few are very efficient (eg: Wrathful Skies, Lighting Orb ). While I think that the problem with Blood and death is more pervasive.

IF: there is a problem. HOW: Is it pervasive and DOES: It come at a cost that is equitable to it's power and FINALLY: What nations and how does this impact the balance of those nations who rely on said magics.

Of course some people simply like the status quo. I would imagine Zen that you argued like heck against nerfing the VQ.

I would imagine that you have no concept of what you are arguing for or against with statements like this. If you want to drag the VQ debate up and whether or not I argued for (yes) and against (yes) it, then that is fine.

It is an inevitable course of the game that people will feel ANYTHING needs nerfing because of their own personal reasons. Most of which stem from their inability to use them, cope against them, or abuse of them to win games.

Edit: It seems to me the learning curve hasn't quite hit the "number of gems to feasibly create an 'abusive' enviroment" for a number of people.

[ June 02, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Huzurdaddi]

However, since Air also has a wide variety of uses, Earth, has a wide variety of uses, even Nature, Astral and gasp, Water and Fire have a wide variety of uses. Then

I have not seen many Posts about combat tactics which are considered "extremely effective" using the earth, water, astral or fire domains.

I do see a number of Posts extolling the virtues of many air combat magics ( orb lighting, wrathful skies, storm to name a few ). I have seen many Posts extolling the virtues of both death combat's summons and their combat magics. I have seen many Posts which explain in mind numbing detail how to gain a blood economy and how to exploit, utilize if you prefer, the very powerful summons in blood.

There are few mentions on this board titled: "How to dominate all with the raw naked power of Nature!11!."

I simply notice a trend on the Boards which is that people comment frequently about spells which are in the death and to a smaller amount in the blood domain. In the few multilayer games I have played I see quite a number of death and blood summons, but I see few of the other magics. Thus I began to wonder: is this simply play style ( or post style ) or perhaps is there some fundamental imbalance between the different schools of magic?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I have not seen many Posts about combat tactics which are considered "extremely effective" using the earth, water, astral or fire domains.

I suggest that you might want to ask Piratejam about just how effective fire magic can be.

There are few mentions on this board titled: "How to dominate all with the raw naked power of Nature!11!."

Nature is a support school, and can act as a force multiplier for your troops. It can be an extremely large multiplier under the right circumstances.

In the few multilayer games I have played I see quite a number of death and blood summons, but I see few of the other magics.

This is probably because death and blood have more summons than other schools. It's not surprising that you see more of them when there simply _are_ more.

Death is a powerful school of magic, but then, so is nature.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

---

Of course some people simply like the status quo. I would imagine Zen that you argued like heck against nerfing the VQ.

I would imagine that you have no concept of what you are arguing for or against with statements like this. If you want to drag the VQ debate up and whether or not I argued for (yes) and against (yes) it, then that is fine.

[/QB]

---

Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong Zen, but unless you have argued "for" and "against" VQ in different times (and have been changing your opinion in between), it sounds like you mostly argued just for the sake of agueing?...

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong Zen, but unless you have argued "for" and "against" VQ in different times (and have been changing your opinion in between), it sounds like you mostly argued just for the sake of agueing?...

No I argued that it should be adjusted; but that the reasoning was not sound and still is not. Unfortunately you have a very bad memory so I don't fault you for it. The reason that the VQ was 'nerfed' was because of it's priceworthiness vs Liches. Having nothing to do with it's combat effectiveness or "Abuse" as some people would wrongly catagorize it.

[ June 03, 2004, 00:27: Message edited by: Zen ]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I have not seen many Posts about combat tactics which are considered "extremely effective" using the earth, water, astral or fire domains.

Well, just because their are not very many Posts about them, suddenly they are not 'effective'? Perhaps, but I don't see it as so. I rarely see many Posts at all about any school being 'extremely effective' and detailing how and why but more of "What do you think is the Best" Posts, which Blood and Death fall into categories of with certain aspects of their magic.

I do see a number of Posts extolling the virtues of many air combat magics ( orb lighting, wrathful skies, storm to name a few ). I have seen many Posts extolling the virtues of both death combat's summons and their combat magics.

That is true but just because something has virtues (Air, yes, having many), does not mean it's overpowered. Storm is extremely effective, I don't think anyone is saying counter to that. Wrathful Skies is extremely effective. Orb Lighting, with the appropriate setup, is extremely effective. It is very well rounded and has one of the most universally useful abilities (Flying). I would say that Air is probably the best of magics taken as a whole. Does that mean I think it should be nerfed? No. Certain things may need to be modified (Wrathful Skies for example) but not the entire school. Death is the same way. It has a unique aspect of having summons that have a universal trait (No Encumberance with Equipment) so it is more versatile what you can and cannot put on their commander summons. It also holds a very useful ability (Immortal). Does Death stack up to Air? No. Does Death have the capability to be abused in the right hands? Definitely.

I have seen many Posts which explain in mind numbing detail how to gain a blood economy and how to exploit, utilize if you prefer, the very powerful summons in blood

This is because it's a mind numbingly hard concept to grasp for certain Groups of people, and the understanding of having a universal income of "Blood Gems" no matter the sites/provinces (in general). So in order to better help people understand they post ways to use it.

I simply notice a trend on the Boards which is that people comment frequently about spells which are in the death and to a smaller amount in the blood domain. In the few multilayer games I have played I see quite a number of death and blood summons, but I see few of the other magics. Thus I began to wonder: is this simply play style ( or post style ) or perhaps is there some fundamental imbalance between the different schools of magic?

Part of it is a fundamental imbalance in the magics and nations that use them. Certain nations must, in order to be competitive, use their Magic to it's fullest potential. Thus relying extremely heavily on one school (Blood for Example, or Death/Air) as the mid/late game progresses.

Astral is the only school that this might not be the obvious case. Only because the Summons are not price-friendly but the Item Forging and Combat Spells are extremely powerful.

[PvK]

I'm with Zen.

The latest thread popularity is a really bad indicator of what is good, bad, useless, overpowered or broken in the game. This game is full of tons of stuff. Some of it is very powerful in the right circumstances, but not without costs and trade-offs. I've been playing Dominions since months before D2 came out (playing D1:PPP), and there is still tons of stuff I haven't seen, let alone used or figured out strategies for.

Some stuff can be hugely effective without being flashy. Death and blood magic tends to be flashy and dramatic. When expected, it also tends to evaporate in a cascade of cheap banishment attacks. Nature magic can win battles and wars without even being noticed. For example, getting steamrollered by a huge army... because there were some commanders with nature items allowing many more living/eating units to exist in a single location without starving, perhaps even marching straight through dead Ermorian provinces with no supply problems.

No strong water magic? Hmm... got strong underwater units? Got clams? Unimpressed with my sword of swiftness and boots of quickness?

PvK

[Huzurdaddi]

Well, just because their are not very many Posts about them, suddenly they are not 'effective'?

I think the arrow points in the other direction. If there are a number of Posts about something being "effective" then there is a chance that something is out of wack.

I'm sure that you have played a number of on line games. Usually it starts with one or two Posts about something being "darn good." Then perhaps a discussion about it being "overpowered." This claim is almost always followed by counter claims supported by the assertion "with more experience you will understand." Sometimes the clamour dies down for a while. Then after some more time there are further Posts about how it is "imbalanced" this time more vocal. This is followed by even more people ( perhaps the very people that are exploiting the imbalance ) posting that "you simply do not see the counters" and perhaps illustrating a few ( difficult to implement or fraught with their own perils ) counters. The clamour dies down then. Then finally a good percentage of the gaming population starts doing this "abusive" strategy, and people come to the Boards en mass to say it is broken at which point the developers start to take a look.

It's a pretty classic cycle. Now to be sure there are plenty of people who yell "nerf" without proper justification. However I would say that, in most games ( perhaps dominions2 is the execption, time will tell ), the claims are justified more often than not.

Wrathful Skies is extremely effective.

Perhaps too effecive given it low research and casting requirements given that it is a battlefield effect spell that Lasts the duration of the battle. But I don't know if I want to get into specifics.

Orb Lighting, with the appropriate setup, is extremely effective.

Again some may argue that it is too effective.

but not the entire school

Note this is exactly what I said about air. I see only a few problematic spells in air.

Death is the same way.

Certianly only SOME spells seem to be out of wack. However the number of spells which seem out of wack seems great to me. I could be mistaken.

Only because the Summons are not price-friendly but the Item Forging and Combat Spells are extremely powerful.

Are astral's combat spells really that superior to death? Is Slay Living/Enslave Mind for example superior to life drain? I don't know. In some cases yes, in some cases no. I would call it a push to be honest. The astral magic seems superior against normal troops, while life drain seems superior against SC's. Some would argue that normal troops are useless hence anti-normal troops spells are useless. To those people life drain is far superior.

Got clams?

Clearly Borked! Moderatly easy access to exponential growth == bad IMO!

Unimpressed with my sword of swiftness

Gimmie a wrath sword or Blood thorn any day of the week and twice on sundays!

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I think the arrow points in the other direction. If there are a number of Posts about something being "effective" then there is a chance that something is out of wack.

That's a common misconception. Sort of like how unsung heroes are still heroes, even if people don't know or not.

I'm sure that you have played a number of on line games. Usually it starts with one or two Posts about something being "darn good." Then perhaps a discussion about it being "overpowered." This claim is almost always followed by counter claims supported by the assertion "with more experience you will understand." Sometimes the clamour dies down for a while. Then after some more time there are further Posts about how it is "imbalanced" this time more vocal. This is followed by even more people ( perhaps the very people that are exploiting the imbalance ) posting that "you simply do not see the counters" and perhaps illustrating a few ( difficult to implement or fraught with their own perils ) counters. The clamour dies down then. Then finally a good percentage of the gaming population starts doing this "abusive" strategy, and people come to the Boards en mass to say it is broken at which point the developers start to take a look.

Sheep are vocal, does that mean they are right?

It's a pretty classic cycle. Now to be sure there are plenty of people who yell "nerf" without proper justification. However I would say that, in most games ( perhaps dominions2 is the execption, time will tell ), the claims are justified more often than not.

Yes, it is classic that the most vocal try to initiate change, but is more often unjustified than justified.

Perhaps too effecive given it low research and casting requirements given that it is a battlefield effect spell that Lasts the duration of the battle. But I don't know if I want to get into specifics.

Evocation 6 is Hardly "Low". If you don't want to get into specifics, then don't say things are unbalanced. Especially when it was my Example of an obviously superior path of magic that wasn't as you claim 'borked'.

Again some may argue that it is too effective.

These people would be uninformed and aruging without basis. If Orb Lightning is too effective Fire Darts should be looked at prior to Orb Lightning.

Note this is exactly what I said about air. I see only a few problematic spells in air.

I doubt you see is what can be termed as 'problematic'.

Certianly only SOME spells seem to be out of wack. However the number of spells which seem out of wack seems great to me. I could be mistaken.

Indeed you could, especially if you can't point out any one spell. At least NTJedi pointed at the one really abusable, low cost spell in the Death Path that may be an issue if it needs to be changed. Previous to the Last patches, you could also have said Tartarians, but as it stands now, there is nothing in Death that gives it any sort of advantage over 5-6 other Paths. You seem to not be able to see or choose not to see the very real limitations of Death.

Are astral's combat spells really that superior to death? Is Slay Living/Enslave Mind for example superior to life drain? I don't know. In some cases yes, in some cases no. I would call it a push to be honest. The astral magic seems superior against normal troops, while life drain seems superior against SC's. Some would argue that normal troops are useless hence anti-normal troops spells are useless. To those people life drain is far superior.

Let me give you a list of what half are called TIDE TURNERS for Battlefield spells and the other half are the near creme of the crop individual buffs (Only a few others take priority).

Mind Duel (Limited but incredibly effective)
Stellar Cascades
Astral Fire (Includes Fire)
Nether Darts (Includes Death)
Astral Tempest (Army Killer Use Returning)
Body Ethereal
Luck
Battle Fortune (Realistic in most Games)
Doom (Army Killer)
Will of the Fates (In line with "Best Buffs of the Game")
Resist Magic
Astral Weapon (Like to kill SC's?)
Astral Shield (Like to be a SC?)
Astral Healing (The Unsung Hero for Living Armies)
Antimagic (Never leave home without it)
Communion (This is totally useless, don't do this, right?)
Paralyze (Neutered, but still extremely effective)
Soul Slay (Kill's dead, remember your Penetration Items)
Vortex of Returning (Game Winner)

Also the only Battlefield wide "Life Drain" spell is Soul Drain, all others are single target, no area effect spells. I'll leave you to guess what paths Soul Drain is.

Gimmie a wrath sword or Blood thorn any day of the week and twice on sundays!

And watch those Lifeless units eat you up. You need to get out more.

To sum up: Seems you've been playing with too many people who only use Lifedraining SC's. This is absolutely no surprise to me as it is the easiest way to make a SC and make them effective. But they have very real weaknesses, not the least of which is an entire class of units that cannot be life drained. And for every Wraith Sword or Blood Thorn on a SC, you're going to see a Antimagic Amulet and a Luck Pendant/Luck Coin with it. If not; then that is a disregard for their gems and they're planning on having a very real loss of gems by doing so.

[ June 03, 2004, 04:57: Message edited by: Zen ]