Death & Blood a little borked?

[Cohen]

Don't forget Air buffing spells!
Mistform and Mirror Images (which usually in combo with the +3 Def of Quickness become very deadly, in fact I believe Mirror Images should be easier to break, perhaps removing one mirror image each time it's struck since the warrior realizes he's hit an illusion, and all mirror images if the real unit is struck). Air Queen are the strongest of Elemental Lords, ethereal, flying, mirror images by default (2 out of 3 iirc), can trapeze.

Death is superior to Astral in direct combat magic, since Death spells can't be stopped, while astrals are countered by magic resistance (easily improved by amulet of antimagic).

Astral however is a little more versatile, cause covers all aspects, but it most is beaten by others.

Blood is good for summons, Astral Corruption could be nice, but most of the battle spells require blood slaves in battle that can be easily arrowed, killed, or even burned by your heat in case of Abysya (very sad this aspect ...)

Nature is good too, except for their unique summons, that I believe should be a little "stronger" ... I mean, their problem is = move, and they cannot teleport, only Faerie Trod which is expensive. They can't too raise a lot their magic skill since they've 2 misc slot, so a Druid with a treelord staff can easily get 4N and having too the summoning vinethings bonus.

Water I believe is very nice, but only for a strict selection of Nations, water nations especially.

Fire I believe it's too strict, and not very well working. It should be the best battle magic, for direct damage, but it isn't since it could be resisted, while Death can't. Holy Pyre shouldn't be resisted by FR, if we consider the damage is HOLY and not FIERY, or however it should be affected at maximum by a 50% FR. It lacks of a generic good global. Everyone has the "gem creation global", and fire has 2 specific global, a hot increaser (specific for hot nations), and an anti undead.

Earth path is the best defence by "common" damage. Not very good IMO, except some cranking spells like Forge of the Ancients or Wizard Tower!. E bless isn't very good too ...


Summary of my mind:
Well obviously I believe Air is the most powerful, followed by Death.
Blood is fine, with his strenght and weaknesses.
Nature and Astral are fine too.
Water ... is nice too, quickness + breath of winter are very very good.
Fire is fine except for Holy Pyre as I told.
Earth should have 1 or 2 more defensive buffs, one that could be nice is a MagmaSkin, combined with 1 or 2 ranks of fire, a sort of hot breathe of winter. Or a whirlwind of sharp stones swirling around the caster.

I'd like to see in next patches some new spells with mixed paths.

Originally posted by Cohen:
Death is superior to Astral in direct combat magic, since Death spells can't be stopped, while astrals are countered by magic resistance (easily improved by amulet of antimagic).

Little Hint. There is only one spell in Death that can't be resisted. And it's a single target, 100 precision spell with 14+ Damage that requires 4D to cast. It is also Alteration 5. A more damaging spell Bone Grinding is actually a better use unless you are dealing only with a Life Draining SC that has no defense. And an AMA will only protect you from some things. You can still be Soul Slayed, and Paralyzed if you are playing someone who knows what they are doing, quite easily.

Astral however is a little more versatile, cause covers all aspects, but it most is beaten by others.

Wrong, actually Astral is usually second in EVERYTHING with the exception of summons (which if Golems didn't require Earth 2 to cast, they would not be). I don't know how often you use Stygian Paths to have an instant react force, but I'm willing to bet quite a bit Teleport and Gateway are used infinitely more. (Not to mention the Gate Stone and Boots of the Planes).

Nature is good too, except for their unique summons, that I believe should be a little "stronger" ... I mean, their problem is = move.

Treelord's suck. No question there, but Faerie Queens and Couatl's are extremely potent. Not to mention Lamia Queens.

They can't too raise a lot their magic skill since they've 2 misc slot, so a Druid with a treelord staff can easily get 4N and having too the summoning vinethings bonus.

No clue what this means, but most of the summons for Nature come with great nature skills. Also you seem to be forgetting Mandragora's.

Water I believe is very nice, but only for a strict selection of Nations, water nations especially.

Water is good for everyone. Though you don't need to have high levels of it to make it work for you.

Fire I believe it's too strict, and not very well working. It should be the best battle magic, for direct damage, but it isn't since it could be resisted, while Death can't.

Death has only one spell. And it does have the best battle magic for direct damage. If you don't believe so, try using a 9F Moloch throughout the course of a game to lay down some punishment.

Holy Pyre shouldn't be resisted by FR, if we consider the damage is HOLY and not FIERY, or however it should be affected at maximum by a 50% FR.

Witches still burned by fire. It was only Holy in the minds of those who burned them. Maybe you are putting to much emphasis on the "Holy" and less on the "Pyre".

It lacks of a generic good global. Everyone has the "gem creation global", and fire has 2 specific global, a hot increaser (specific for hot nations), and an anti undead.

If Purgatory was not limited to Dominion Only it would be a fantastic global. Second Sun is only good for heat nations, but guess what types of nations have fire magic? With the exception of Marignon they all have a heat preference.

Earth path is the best defence by "common" damage. Not very good IMO, except some cranking spells like Forge of the Ancients or Wizard Tower!.

Hrm. Defense for "Common" Damage? You mean increasing Protection to 30 with one 3E spell? Or Iron Will for MR? How about combat magic? Blade Wind? Petrify? Earthquake? Magma Eruption? Destruction? Marble Warriors? Weapons of Sharpness?

E bless isn't very good too ...

Hrm. Isn't very good? Okay.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cohen:
[QB]E bless isn't very good too ... [?QB]

I have to disagree. The earth blessing is probably one of the best for nations with strong sacred mages. This is especially true for those that use communion a lot. Earth 10 gives the mages 5 reinvigoration per turn. Add in 4 on every communicant from earthpower, and 5 from being unconscious, and the mages will regain 14 fatigue per turn. That's a huge amount.

[Cohen]

If you use communion probably you won't go for a E blessing ...
_________________________________________________

Yes I put enphasis on HOLY because it does triple damage on undeads and daemons. If it should be fire only, well or *3 should be forgotten, or even a fireball should be *3 against undeads and demons ^^.

Death has many other combat spells, especially vs Undeads, like Dust to Dust or Wither Bones or generic ones like Shadow Bolts ...
A Wraith Lord with elemental armor can't be stopped easily without another SCs if you haven't death mages or astral (with spell focus and other mr piercing items).

However everyone has its own mind and experiences.
I'm awaiting for next patch to see some changes ... if any will occur.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cohen:
If you use communion probably you won't go for a E blessing ...

Why not? It greatly increases the amount of spells you can cast, and reduces the possibility that your communion slaves will be killed by the master. It also gives you access to a powerful earth mage, which is always a great thing to have.

[Huzurdaddi]

That's a common misconception.

Giggle. Always the same with you zen. It's quite comical. No, really. It is. LOL.

Sheep are vocal, does that mean they are right?

Again, you are always comical.

Evocation 6 is Hardly "Low". If you don't want to get into specifics, then don't say things are unbalanced. Especially when it was my Example of an obviously superior path of magic that wasn't as you claim 'borked'.

Ahh but if only you read the rest of the sentence instead of just flying off trying to make your "point". Note it said : "for a spell that affects the whole battle feild".

If Orb Lightning is too effective Fire Darts should be looked at prior to Orb Lightning.

Fire darts is indeed a great spell for it's research level. Orb lighting is, however, in another class. It is one of the best evocation spells around given it's casting requirements and effects. It does have a weakness, units which are resistant to it's particular damage type, but other than that it's quite amazing.

I doubt you see is what can be termed as 'problematic'.

Ok... whatever.

Indeed you could, especially if you can't point out any one spell.

Indeed I went over a number of summons which seem to be exceptionally cost effective. NTJedi added the current spell-du-jour.

Well Zen I guess I'm through playing with you and your continual insults and random jabs. It's is funny though.

[Huzurdaddi]

I have to disagree. The earth blessing is probably one of the best for nations with strong sacred mages. This is especially true for those that use communion a lot. Earth 10 gives the mages 5 reinvigoration per turn. Add in 4 on every communicant from earthpower, and 5 from being unconscious, and the mages will regain 14 fatigue per turn. That's a huge amount.

Hey that's a good one. However not all of the communion nations can go for earth power. However, just 10 fatigue per turn is very nice and could really save a good number of lives. I would guess that with a 2:1 ratio of slaves to masters you would have a good chance of everyone living though even long combats.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong Zen, but unless you have argued "for" and "against" VQ in different times (and have been changing your opinion in between), it sounds like you mostly argued just for the sake of agueing?...

No I argued that it should be adjusted; but that the reasoning was not sound and still is not. Unfortunately you have a very bad memory so I don't fault you for it. The reason that the VQ was 'nerfed' was because of it's priceworthiness vs Liches. Having nothing to do with it's combat effectiveness or "Abuse" as some people would wrongly catagorize it.

---

Heh, for the peace enforcing moderator you tend to get nasty very easly Zen. I've said "correct me if I am wrong", did I? No need for the insults.

I have no problem with memory, thank you very much. And I remeber what you told me about VQ and Liches. However I am surprised that you are saying that priceworthness have nothing to do with combat effectivness, when in fact they are clearly related.

If you take any strong SC chassis and give it 0 base chassis and 10 new path price, you'll make it more priceworthy. And the same time you will increase its combat effectiveness, since now for the same price you can make more powerfull pretender (relatively to any other pretender for the same price).


In reality they are two sides of the same coin. Of course the cost is not the only thing that affrcts combat effectivness, but it is one of the factors.


Anyway I am not really interested in the main subject of this thread, I just wanted to clarify your position on the VQ issue after it was mentioned here, since it was not clear to me from your "for and against" post, which you now did, thanks.

[ June 03, 2004, 09:54: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Graeme Dice]

[quote]Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
It does have a weakness, units which are resistant to it's particular damage type, but other than that it's quite amazing.[/QUOTE}

It has another weakness, which is that it requires your mage to stand at the very front of the battlefield.

Well Zen I guess I'm through playing with you and your continual insults and random jabs. It's is funny though.

You'd be better off if you tried to deal with his points, instead of just brushing him off.

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Heh, for the peace enforcing moderator you tend to get nasty very easly Zen. I've said "correct me if I am wrong", did I? No need for the insults.

I did correct you. Forgive me if I have to seem to hammer points home with you, from your Posts in the past you have a distinct lack of understanding of other peoples PoV.

I have no problem with memory, thank you very much.

If you say so. I believe it's what is called "Selective Memory" and it affects us all.

And I remeber what you told me about VQ and Liches. However I am surprised that you are saying that priceworthness have nothing to do with combat effectivness, when in fact they are clearly related.

Related how? A "Comparison of Lich vs VQ" and a change based on points may be construed as combat effectiveness. But the reason it was changed was not because of it's combat effectiveness, which ultimately will not change for the VQ itself. But rather it was a clear "No-brainer" that for every instance where you would consider a Lich, the VQ always won because of it's price/ability ratio. True, you don't see many Liches going toe-to-toe in a SC role (I believe this is an issue with the Liches, not the VQ being better) but now the Liches are less 'outclassed' by a factor of points for any number of Pretender Builds (Rainbows, Blessings, etc).

If you take any strong SC chassis and give it 0 base chassis and 10 new path price, you'll make it more priceworthy. And the same time you will increase its combat effectiveness, since now for the same price you can make more powerfull pretender (relatively to any other pretender for the same price).

To a degree you are correct in the fact that it's more 'powerful' but not more combat effective. If you've ever used a lich, I doubt it's been a hand to face type of Pretender (his strengths fall in another Category). Whereas I can tell that you've used a VQ for exactly that. A Pretender with 3 Death and 1 Water is much more combat effective than a Pretender with 3 Death, 3 Blood, and 1 Astral. One is obviously more magically powerful, but the other is less 'combat effective'.

Anyway I am not really interested in the main subject of this thread, I just wanted to clarify your position on the VQ issue after it was mentioned here, since it was not clear to me from your "for and against" post, which you now did, thanks.

No Problem.

[ June 03, 2004, 14:03: Message edited by: Zen ]