Death & Blood a little borked?

[Huzurdaddi]

I have to disagree. The earth blessing is probably one of the best for nations with strong sacred mages. This is especially true for those that use communion a lot. Earth 10 gives the mages 5 reinvigoration per turn. Add in 4 on every communicant from earthpower, and 5 from being unconscious, and the mages will regain 14 fatigue per turn. That's a huge amount.

Hey that's a good one. However not all of the communion nations can go for earth power. However, just 10 fatigue per turn is very nice and could really save a good number of lives. I would guess that with a 2:1 ratio of slaves to masters you would have a good chance of everyone living though even long combats.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong Zen, but unless you have argued "for" and "against" VQ in different times (and have been changing your opinion in between), it sounds like you mostly argued just for the sake of agueing?...

No I argued that it should be adjusted; but that the reasoning was not sound and still is not. Unfortunately you have a very bad memory so I don't fault you for it. The reason that the VQ was 'nerfed' was because of it's priceworthiness vs Liches. Having nothing to do with it's combat effectiveness or "Abuse" as some people would wrongly catagorize it.

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Heh, for the peace enforcing moderator you tend to get nasty very easly Zen. I've said "correct me if I am wrong", did I? No need for the insults.

I have no problem with memory, thank you very much. And I remeber what you told me about VQ and Liches. However I am surprised that you are saying that priceworthness have nothing to do with combat effectivness, when in fact they are clearly related.

If you take any strong SC chassis and give it 0 base chassis and 10 new path price, you'll make it more priceworthy. And the same time you will increase its combat effectiveness, since now for the same price you can make more powerfull pretender (relatively to any other pretender for the same price).


In reality they are two sides of the same coin. Of course the cost is not the only thing that affrcts combat effectivness, but it is one of the factors.


Anyway I am not really interested in the main subject of this thread, I just wanted to clarify your position on the VQ issue after it was mentioned here, since it was not clear to me from your "for and against" post, which you now did, thanks.

[ June 03, 2004, 09:54: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Graeme Dice]

[quote]Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
It does have a weakness, units which are resistant to it's particular damage type, but other than that it's quite amazing.[/QUOTE}

It has another weakness, which is that it requires your mage to stand at the very front of the battlefield.

Well Zen I guess I'm through playing with you and your continual insults and random jabs. It's is funny though.

You'd be better off if you tried to deal with his points, instead of just brushing him off.

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Heh, for the peace enforcing moderator you tend to get nasty very easly Zen. I've said "correct me if I am wrong", did I? No need for the insults.

I did correct you. Forgive me if I have to seem to hammer points home with you, from your Posts in the past you have a distinct lack of understanding of other peoples PoV.

I have no problem with memory, thank you very much.

If you say so. I believe it's what is called "Selective Memory" and it affects us all.

And I remeber what you told me about VQ and Liches. However I am surprised that you are saying that priceworthness have nothing to do with combat effectivness, when in fact they are clearly related.

Related how? A "Comparison of Lich vs VQ" and a change based on points may be construed as combat effectiveness. But the reason it was changed was not because of it's combat effectiveness, which ultimately will not change for the VQ itself. But rather it was a clear "No-brainer" that for every instance where you would consider a Lich, the VQ always won because of it's price/ability ratio. True, you don't see many Liches going toe-to-toe in a SC role (I believe this is an issue with the Liches, not the VQ being better) but now the Liches are less 'outclassed' by a factor of points for any number of Pretender Builds (Rainbows, Blessings, etc).

If you take any strong SC chassis and give it 0 base chassis and 10 new path price, you'll make it more priceworthy. And the same time you will increase its combat effectiveness, since now for the same price you can make more powerfull pretender (relatively to any other pretender for the same price).

To a degree you are correct in the fact that it's more 'powerful' but not more combat effective. If you've ever used a lich, I doubt it's been a hand to face type of Pretender (his strengths fall in another Category). Whereas I can tell that you've used a VQ for exactly that. A Pretender with 3 Death and 1 Water is much more combat effective than a Pretender with 3 Death, 3 Blood, and 1 Astral. One is obviously more magically powerful, but the other is less 'combat effective'.

Anyway I am not really interested in the main subject of this thread, I just wanted to clarify your position on the VQ issue after it was mentioned here, since it was not clear to me from your "for and against" post, which you now did, thanks.

No Problem.

[ June 03, 2004, 14:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

[PvK]

[quote]Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:

quote:

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Got clams?

Clearly Borked! Moderatly easy access to exponential growth == bad IMO!

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Yes, for those who can and do abuse them, but isn't that objection irrelevant in this thread? The thread suggests death and blood may be too powerful, and that water is weak. But clams are just one example of how water is strong. If they get reduced, presumably they may get something improved for balance, as well. Until then, they are a notable strength.

quote:

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Unimpressed with my sword of swiftness

Gimmie a wrath sword or Blood thorn any day of the week and twice on sundays!

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Please do. Your sword is a two-hander that does only the same damage as mine, if it hits. My sword is a one-hander that attacks twice per turn. Your sword offers +2 to attack and +3 to defend. Mine offers +1 to each of my two attacks, and +4 to defend, plus I will be using my other hand for a magic shield, so if we have the same skill, you are going to have a hard time hitting me. I'd say your choice is sub-optimal except for beating up on lesser, living targets.

PvK

[Master Shake]

The various paths of magic seemed damned well balanced to me. Some are better at certain things than others. That's the whole fricking point! If they all had great globals, summons, battle magic, and items, than the game would be more boring!

However, if you still think death is overpowered, then choose death magic. It's the easiest path for anyone to get into. Dark Knowledge is a D1 spell. You can create TWO easy +1 D items with D2 (skull staff and crown). You can summon revenants with D1 mage with a skull staff. A revenant can cast Dark Knowledge. A revenant with a skull staff can summon more revenants. A revenant with a skull staff and crown can summon a spectre (D1, 2?). A D2 spectre can take the staff and crown from the revenant and summon a Mound Fiend (D3, unholy 3). The Mound Fiend with the staff and crown is D5 and can do pretty much anything you want death-wise. So if you like death, go for it.

As a final point, I would say that Posts on an open forum whining about things being overpowered without any sort of clear argument backed up by specifics is a really bad barometer about real game balance.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I think the arrow points in the other direction. If there are a number of Posts about something being "effective" then there is a chance that something is out of wack.

That's a common misconception. Sort of like how unsung heroes are still heroes, even if people don't know or not.

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To which Huzurdaddi replied:

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:

Giggle. Always the same with you zen. It's quite comical. No, really. It is. LOL.

I think Zen is quite right here, so if he's always the same about it, then good for him!

Designs where anything "effective" is broken tend to be annoying mis-applications of rock-paper-scissors game balance, a "principle" based on one of the most pointless games ever conceived, often with equally-pointless (and anti-"thematic") results.

Dominions offers many effective, and later, more and more powerful spells. That's one of its many charms, and not at all a problem. It does this on purpose, and it's able to do this without being unfair or imbalanced, because there are so many other effective alternatives available to everyone, and practically everything has some kind of counter-move.

High-powered magic is supposed to be effective in this game, and it is, without being unfair. There are many effective strategies and techniques for every path. There are also many ways to squander points and be ineffective with the things a player has chosen to acquire. Some things may also be more obvious or overt or less tricky than others, particularly when they are explained on a forum to players who haven't yet found equally effective techniques, or who don't have a clear plan for play except for a few tricks.

Moreover, the whole suggestion that certain paths are "borked" would be somewhat impractical, even if it were true, because there is rarely any direct contest between one path and another. In play there is never a simple contest of one flavor of magic versus another, and research is not even down a single magic flavor.

PvK