Musings on immortality

[Taqwus]

Immortality, as is, seems to have a few different effects.

* Death within one's dominion results in immediate resurrection in the capital, if the latter is still in friendly hands.

* Immortal commanders within their dominion do not retreat. Immortal units, however, may, regardless of dominion.

* Immortality provides some form of recuperation, although I do not know how strong this is relative to the separate recuperation inherent to assorted mortal units.


It occurs to me that the first ability is, in some cases, a bit strange when taken in conjunction with in-game ideas. For instance, the Vanheim fay boar is a boar meant to be repeatedly eaten, much like Thor's goats. Kill them, cook them, eat them, let them miraculously reconstruct themselves from their remains. Hence, they provide a significant supply bonus.

That's all fine and good, but what does this porcine respawning have to do with dominion? Outside of their dominion, should it grant a supply bonus? It does now. If it can reconstruct itself after death even outside its own dominion, and presumably without requiring it to make its way back from the capital at incredible speed, then why is the immortality flag appropriate in that it's a dominion-linked way of reviving it in its capital?

The same goes for vampires, if you consider the Version of immortality as-is versus, say, the vampire found in western European lore. Those vampires could be incapacitated, if with difficulty; once done, there were ritualistic methods for permanently finishing the job (typically involving holy wafers, decapitation, dismemberment, wooden stakes, or some combination thereof). Thus, if one managed to take down a vampire, it -could- be finished if you were aware of its nature and took the appropriate means; otherwise, if you just buried it as if it were an ordinary mortal, it would eventually be back.

These suggest that perhaps there should be a separate ability, with something like the following rule --

* A unit possessing this ability, when slain, will be revived in the very same province at the end of the turn regardless of dominion but if and only if at no point in that turn was the province (or castle interior, if the unit was inside a castle) outside of friendly control.

To me, recuperation would still seem to make sense in as much anything that can reconstitute it from death through massive damage is probably pretty good at healing (certain exceptions might be made involving entities that can possess others, but cannot voluntarily leave a still-living host. Dominions II does not currently have any monster fitting this description). Having fanatical morale in one's own dominion, however, is no longer applicable since getting killed while being on the losing side in a battle would be the usual permadeath regardless of dominion.

Of course, this would affect balance and thus other factors such a cost would need to be examined. The infamous vampire queen, for instance, might not be as likely to tempt fate by making suicidal in-dominion attacks. And, for some units (perhaps a demilich's spirit can flee back home and reconstruct a body?) the current form would be more appropriate.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
For instance, the Vanheim fay boar is a boar meant to be repeatedly eaten, much like Thor's goats. Kill them, cook them, eat them, let them miraculously reconstruct themselves from their remains. Hence, they provide a significant supply bonus.

That's all fine and good, but what does this porcine respawning have to do with dominion? Outside of their dominion, should it grant a supply bonus? It does now.

You're right in that this is one of the cases where the functioning of immortality in-game seems at odds with the effect for which this immortality is exploited: If the boars, when killed and eaten, respawned in the capitol, they would not provide a continuing supply bonus, and not at all outside of dominion, since they would not respawn. A fundamental disconnect between flavor text, function, and implementation, as it were: I think you're just going to have to suspend your disbelief on this one.

The same goes for vampires, if you consider the Version of immortality as-is versus, say, the vampire found in western European lore. Those vampires could be incapacitated, if with difficulty; once done, there were ritualistic methods for permanently finishing the job (typically involving holy wafers, decapitation, dismemberment, wooden stakes, or some combination thereof). Thus, if one managed to take down a vampire, it -could- be finished if you were aware of its nature and took the appropriate means; otherwise, if you just buried it as if it were an ordinary mortal, it would eventually be back.

Well, according to other sources of vampire lore, when a vampire is slain in battle, it reverts to a gaseous state and returns to its place of rest, generally a coffin or sarcophagus, where it reforms and recuperates. It can be slain in such a state via the aforementioned means. Thus, this seems to be accurately modelled in the game: The vampire returns to its place of rest, the capitol, but if that place is controlled by hostile forces, they put an end to it.

And, for some units (perhaps a demilich's spirit can flee back home and reconstruct a body?) the current form would be more appropriate.

A lich exhibits a similar behavior: When a lich, at least in the same sources consulted, is slain, its spirit returns to the locality of some object of importance to it, which in Dominions II flavor text, appears to be the lich's viscera, which is removed and stored in a safe place, undoubtedly the capitol, and the lich's spirit returns to it and a new body forms from the "dust of dead humans".

If anything, such a process shouldn't retain *ANY* physical afflictions, but the lich is not so lucky, apparently.

This dependency on the dust of dead humans is amusing, though: In theory, a lich's reincarnation could be forestalled indefinitely by storing it in a place where there are no dead humans or any other similar critters anywhere in the vicinity, such as in space....but that's outside the scope of Dominions.

[ June 06, 2004, 09:15: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
In theory, a lich's reincarnation could be forestalled indefinitely by storing it in a place where there are no dead humans or any other similar critters anywhere in the vicinity, such as in space....but that's outside the scope of Dominions.

Like, say, Capitol of Ermor. All the people have aöready died and been reanimated...

And about the Fay Boar of Vanheim, regeneration + recuperation would be better in-game terms. If the boars regenerated to their full hitpoints every turn of combat... With this the boar would stay dead after it was slaughtered once, but parts of it could be sliced off wihtout killing it.

[Taqwus]

Originally posted by Endoperez:

And about the Fay Boar of Vanheim, regeneration + recuperation would be better in-game terms. If the boars regenerated to their full hitpoints every turn of combat... With this the boar would stay dead after it was slaughtered once, but parts of it could be sliced off wihtout killing it.

And if could talk, it could first point out which parts of itself were likely to be the most delicious, and afterwards solicit feedback.

This brings to mind rather odd mental images, such as that of annoyed soldiers grumbling about pork being served every meal every day for months on end.

[Cohen]

As Norfleet said most immortals, like vamps, went back in their coffin to recuperate.

And if we put a delay on their resurrection?
Perhaps 1-2 months, if not more? Perhaps with some relationship with damage taken, and distance from resurrection point to death point.