How would you patch this game?

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by PvK:
As has been said before, though, popularity is not a particularly good measure of efficiency. It would be an interesting survey, but I'd trust explanatory arguments why something is good or bad, rather than what people say they use.

Sure, but we've all seen how discussions like that proceed. Agreement is hard to reach, and the discussion tends to descend into a subjective and abusive flamefest. Witness the Vampire Queen debate.

I think my approach would at least lead to a result that could be accepted by the playing community as a whole.

Also, I think any action taken as a result of the survey should usually be in the form of a cost adjustment, rather than any change to functionality, and should be at the complete discretion of the devs. In other words, the survey would simply be a tool to help the devs assess the balance issues.

Even so, not everything should be balanced, both for thematic and sense-making reasons, and also because especially since the steps needed to achieve each thing are frequently complex and different for each nation, each pretender, each situation, and each play style.
PvK

I think if you're only tweaking costs, there's not much danger of destroying thematic elements. Furthermore, if the tweaks mean that elements get used where previously they were not, then the themes that those elements were supposed to promote will actually see the light of day. In other words, I think that balance promotes themes rather than the opposite.

[Yossar]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I would also give the Infernal forces series - I know this applies to Frost Fiends, but I haven't looked into the others - more bang for the buck. Right now, summoning a single demon is more economical than a horde, and time shouldn't be the only thing saved in such an advanced spell.

A) An added cost of 1 or 2 blood slaves is easily worth worth being able to use one mage instead of seven or eight.

B) The number of demons you get from a level 9 blood summonings has a "+" after number of effects. Get a mage with one more skill in blood than required (shouldn't be an arduous task that late in the game) and *BAM* you're more economical than the low level spell.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
What I had in mind was a survey, in which each spell, troop, item and pretender was listed, and beside each one there are 6 responses to the question "How often do you make one of these"

The problem with that logic is that many elements would be "rarely" used, not because that there's anything WRONG with them, but because they're highly situational, and the situation that they'd be best suited for rarely comes up. Other items are rarely made because they're limited in number, or even singular: I rarely make a Sword of Injustice, for instance, not because I think it's a bad weapon, but because it's unique, and situational. It's not of much use to me if I lack unholy priests and undead, and even if I had them, I can make only one of these items. I also would "rarely" cast Burden of Time or Utterdark, not because these are bad spells, but because, once again, they are very situational AND expensive: You have to be both a dead nation(Ermor/CW) and sitting on a pile of a few hundred death gems to make casting these not a suicide move. And I have "never" cast Astral Corruption, not because it sucks, but because it's tailored for a situation I have yet to find myself in. The popularity of something is no measure of its value.

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
The problem with that logic is that many elements would be "rarely" used, not because that there's anything WRONG with them, but because they're highly situational, and the situation that they'd be best suited for rarely comes up.

That's quite true, and a factor that would have to be taken into account by whoever (read: devs) that was trying to interpret the survey results.

This survey would not be a surgical instrument by any means, but it may be a guide that highlights areas of overuse or disuse.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Well, I'm fairly sure you're safe, Zapmeister, Zen's wrath was probably directed at me.

Well Yossar, I suppose you'd be right. It's only bad if you casted with the bare minimum of skill. But how much skill do you need for it to match the economy of the level 3 spell?

I'm using these numbers, which are from memory:

1 frost fiend/6 slaves for the basic spell.

base of 6 frost fiends/50 slaves for force spell.

Every level above min gives 1 extra fiend
_________________________________________________
Each fiend costs (slaves/fiends) 8.33 slaves using force at 5 blood skill.

Each fiend costs 7.14 slaves using force at 6 skill.

Each fiend costs 6.25 slaves using force at 7 skill

Each fiend costs 5.55 slaves using force at 8

You start getting more economical at 8 skill, make of it what you will...

[Esben Mose Hansen]

Too bad we can't gather the statistics ingame. If we could, I would arrange a gameseries with auction-style prices: If a unit/pretender is used, the price goes up. Otherwise, the price falls slightly. That'd be a laugh!

The 2nd game would be all-free light infantry ;-)

[Blitz]

There's nothing wrong with GA Arco as an MP race. I've played them and was rather satisfied with the results. There are a few nagging issues of everything about them being capitol only, but they're far from unplayably bad.

Since we've basicly hijacked this thread, I'm going to start a new one on GA: Arco. Se yall there