Pretender Balance Mod

6 Isn't a standard for Dominion I believe. At most it's 5 I believe. 4 Paths at 3 would be a better estimate (as that is primarily what Rainbows use)

Dominion isn't as useful to Rainbows as it is to Combat Pretenders, because Rainbows do not fight initially, only when they are ready to handle situations and spell research is ready. Whereas the point pouring into Combat Pretenders it to have an immediate economic advantage, wheras with the Rainbow it's a potentially significant gem advantage.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
As an example, let's say you're playing a nation that has access to the Lady of Fortune. If you want a 6+ Dominion and 4W/4N/4E (say) on your pretender, it is actually cheaper to take the Lady of Fortune as opposed to the Frost Father. (The Lady has 164 points left at 6 Dominion, while the Frost Father has 128.) This is with the Lady of Fortune's higher base cost _and_ much higher path cost. I don't think this was intended by the designers.

This Last point is quite irrelevant, since your example isn't meaningful at all: it's built on the LoF's strengths and compares them to the lack of the same strengths on another pretender. You could as well have said, "I want a fire-9 blessing, how does a Crone compare to a Moloch?".

To be fair, you should now design a realistic Frost Father with 1-3 levels in 6-8 paths, a moderate dominion (4-5), and design a LoF using the same magic and dominion strength. Then compute a mean to get a meaningful assessment of their respective values.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Zen:
Scott, not to change your direction or anything regarding your intention. But, don't you only play SP?

I knew this would come up. *sigh* Yes, I only play SP. That is because the computer that DomII is installed on cannot go onto the internet, and the computer (that I'm currently on) that can go onto the internet cannot run Dominions II. It is not because I don't want to play MP.

The benefits of a Rainbow vs a Combat Pretender are easily seen but hard to gauge and do depend somewhat on game settings.

Well, to be honest, I play most often on the settings that are most conducive to Rainbow Mages (Rich, 75% Magic Sites), and I still don't use them.

They are not on a level playing field, but they do allow you to play differently.

Can you give a reason as to why they should not be on more of a level playing field?

A better comparison or 'balance' would be adjusting Pretenders based on the one 'good' pretender that is rainbowish (I.E. The Ghost King) and not trying to match them up against some things that may not fit thematically, or strategically.

As my Virtue/Arch Seraph example points out, I believe that specialization vs. variety should be equally viable. They are not, however. I think I chose the worst possible non-Rainbow Pretender to try to make Rainbow (the Virtue), and it was still better than the Rainbow in 3 or less paths. Under my mod, each _should_ work equally well in a game.

I personally would be much more likely to think of a giant 2 headed snake that could talk and do magic as a God than some creepy old guy who can do magic who lived in some big old castle for years. Simply because I have more in common with the creepy old guy than with the 2 headed snake. And mortality is sort of a key component to being "Godlike" in my book.

Two small quibbles. One, the Wyrm starts with no magic. (The land ArchMage doesn't either, but most Rainbows do.) Two, if mortality is a key component to being "Godlike" (from this I take it you mean that the more immortal you are, the more godlike?), why do the Immortal Pretenders all have low Dominions, and particularly why did the VQ's Dominion _decrease_ in 2.12?

The other option I have is to take the opposite approach, and switch the magic paths of human vs. giant Pretenders. Make the humans the specialists (and let's face it, do they have the time to master 8 different paths of magic?), and make the giants the generalists. Would that be better?

[Arralen]

IMHO a lot of the Rainbow-Mage-Wisdom I read here comes from the days of DOM1.

But with the blesses and all those new sites, Lvl 4 is just too useful.
Lvl 2 on the other hand is quite common on national or even indie mages ..

And getting the human pretenders to Lvl 4 in multiple pathes is too costly, compared to the giants which don't pose to much of a problem at least with some path combinations.

(I found Fire or Water plus Earth plus Death @4 really devastating with blessable troops and mages, e.g. Vanheim, Last of Tuatha, T'ien C'hi)


But I don't think modifying the starting dom as Scott suggest does make much sense. At first, adjusting the point cost is simpler and makes for better fine-tuning.
Second, the problem is not with the base costs, but with the non-existant starting magic levels of the human-sized pretenders.
So give them all Fire, Water, Air, Earth @1 and do the math again ...

[Sheap]

I think the issue here is that you are not considering true rainbow mages. You are focusing on high dominion with strong magic in 2 or 3 paths, which just happens to be exactly the greatest strength of the titans. This is not what a human pretender should be trying to do.

If you have 4 points in each path you can find every magic site except holy/unholy. This will allow you to find on average roughly one site per turn, with average site frequency, as long as your army can keep up this pace of conquest (should be doable vs independents even of high strength).

If you have a rainbow mage you don't need so much dominion because you are not using it to boost your own strength in combat.

If you have 4 levels in each path you can forge almost any item. With an easily made magic item or two you can forge literally any item.

If you have a rainbow mage you gain more from your research in the later game because there are not very many spells you will not be able to cast.

During the early game you will not have the ability to send your pretender out busting independents. You also will not have the risk of getting your pretender afflicted. If someone stabs your 4/4/4 titan in the head, perhaps by standing on a tall ladder, and he gets feebleminded, you are toast. This will never happen with a rainbow mage.

In the midgame you can't take as aggressive a stance as a player with a combat oriented pretender. But you will have more gems, more and better summons and you will have them sooner. You could surprise your enemy with a powerful army of summoned units before he thinks you will have them. And you will have fewer gaps and weaknesses in your army because you will be able to conjure up anything.

The only downside to a rainbow mage, IMO, is that he can do only one thing at a time even later in the game, meaning that if he isn't searching or researching he is wasting a significant fraction of his power. But then a combat pretender wastes a significant fraction of his power whenever he is not actually turning the tide of battle. Every affliction suffered, every turn spent in a siege, every battle overwhelmingly won or lost, wastes the power of the combat pretender.

A lot of the decision is based on what your nation's strengths are. If you have a nation with strong troops that can handle independents with the regular army, but has weak mages, then a rainbow mage is an excellent choice for a pretender. If your troops are weak and depend on high dominion or blessing to fight well then the rainbow mage isn't so great. (Even then your blessing is likely to be not hopeless - a bunch of weak powers instead of one or two strong ones).

[ June 17, 2004, 20:38: Message edited by: Sheap ]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
]I knew this would come up. *sigh* Yes, I only play SP. That is because the computer that DomII is installed on cannot go onto the internet, and the computer (that I'm currently on) that can go onto the internet cannot run Dominions II. It is not because I don't want to play MP.

I never said who plays only SP can't have valid balance suggestions, quite the opposite. But when it comes to pretender design for balance more emphasis is on the MP aspect since it is there that it really shines. In SP you can set you opponents to Impossible and have a Wyrm with 9F9E9S show up at your doorstep and still beat them. But it takes alot of MP to see the ramifications of a Rainbow Pretender or the drawbacks (Some people only play Rainbows in SP because they don't need combat pretenders and the opponent doesn't use their own to full effect)

Well, to be honest, I play most often on the settings that are most conducive to Rainbow Mages (Rich, 75% Magic Sites), and I still don't use them.

I'm just curious why not. Obviously Rich would be a limitation since initial combat pretenders with high gold would be more attractive. But in my mind having an immediate gem income from a Rainbow without having to worry about a Comp Pile I would be more like to play Rainbows.

Can you give a reason as to why they should not be on more of a level playing field?

There is no reason they should not be. But Level in what sense of the word? I'm Pro-Upgrade-Humans, have been from the start. I even wouldn't mind if Humans had a minor boost to Dominion (Max of 2), but I don't think Dominion matters to human pretenders as much as other pretenders. I'd be more inclined to level the playing field with abilities that increase their survivability and speciality rather than brute influence over Dominion. But that's my opinion, you are certainly entitled to your own.

As my Virtue/Arch Seraph example points out, I believe that specialization vs. variety should be equally viable. They are not, however. I think I chose the worst possible non-Rainbow Pretender to try to make Rainbow (the Virtue), and it was still better than the Rainbow in 3 or less paths. Under my mod, each _should_ work equally well in a game.

I don't know what kind of impact you're giving gem income or summons. I would rather choose a Virtue over an Arch Seraph, but it's not because of their inital dominion strengths or even cost/path.

Two small quibbles. One, the Wyrm starts with no magic. (The land ArchMage doesn't either, but most Rainbows do.) Two, if mortality is a key component to being "Godlike" (from this I take it you mean that the more immortal you are, the more godlike?), why do the Immortal Pretenders all have low Dominions, and particularly why did the VQ's Dominion _decrease_ in 2.12?

Because Vampires don't exactly exude influence as much as fear. They don't inspire worship, they demand it. There are alot of factors to look at and it can be argued either way. These are just generalities as far as "Humans in my mind with gods that are human, make me think either a.) they are less of a god because they're human or b.) I'm more godly than mortal since a human can be a god. Either way, the underlying perception could mean less influencial, which is the way IW looks at it.

The other option I have is to take the opposite approach, and switch the magic paths of human vs. giant Pretenders. Make the humans the specialists (and let's face it, do they have the time to master 8 different paths of magic?), and make the giants the generalists. Would that be better?

Better? I don't know but I do know that high magical paths are thematically attuned to beasts that are extremely 'elemental'.

I don't think it would be a bad thing to put 3 Path specifics on Human Pretenders with an increased Path cost of 40/path.

[Vynd]

I agree with Sheap. You are handicapping all of the low dominion chasis by assuming that you always have to start with a Dominion of 6. Operating under that premise of course the Titans and such are better. But there's no rule that says you can't start with a low dominion, and use your points on the things that a Frost Father or whatever is actually good at, instead of frittering them away trying to get a really high dominion.