upkeep

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
I'm not sure why the developers decided to have black hawks cost an upkeep.... they want/need money the same as great lions, wolves and other animals. Perhaps they just don't like birds.

They have an upkeep as a holdover from DOM1 I believe, since otherwise they were by far the cheapest patrollers.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Boron:
and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .

Yes, it makes more sense to me, although both troop types have very different uses. Still, 3 points that are worth mentionning:

(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

(2) I have many many uses for air gems, not so many for water - mostly Sea Trolls and small items like clams or boots - so even if I find myself with 45 air gems at a moment (rare) it's likely I will burn them into something else than Draconians.

(3) Most of the time I don't need the Draconians flying ability as bad as I need the Sea Trolls amphibian and 'need not eat' abilities. You could argue the same abilities are available on undead troops, to which I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone. And alchemizing water to astral to death to recruit more undead instead of Trolls isn't really an efficient use of gems in my book - even if you insert clams in the chain (this may not be entirely true if these clams have been producing gems for scores of game turns, but that's another topic - I'm not really the kind of player who sacrifices the short term to the long term anyway).

So in the end I find myself using Sea Trolls much more often than Draconians - I don't even think I ever used the latter in multiplayer.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.
Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

[ July 14, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boron:
and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .

Yes, it makes more sense to me, although both troop types have very different uses. Still, 3 points that are worth mentionning:

(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

---

They can be summoned individually, with 0 upkeep, at one magic site.


(2) I have many many uses for air gems, not so many for water - mostly Sea Trolls and small items like clams or boots - so even if I find myself with 45 air gems at a moment (rare) it's likely I will burn them into something else than Draconians.


Heh. So - because Water magic sucks so bad, and there are so few other decent uses for water gems, the sea trolls are fine as is?

(3) (...) I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone.

Sheesh. And 100 undead + 20 draconians has a lot more punch than 100 undead alone, as the draconians attack the commanders in the rear. 100 undead + 20 vine men has a lot more punch, 100 undead + 20 bog beasts, etc, etc. Your point is?

[ July 14, 2004, 21:48: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by NTJedi:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.

---

Yes, and to get that leader you need to summon the whole pack first. Exactly what I said.

Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

[NTJedi]

correct copy above

[ July 14, 2004, 22:34: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[NTJedi]

[quote]Originally posted by NTJedi:

Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

Yes, and to get that leader you need to summon the whole pack first. Exactly what I said.

The point here is the ZERO gems and no upkeep... somehow you missed that. LOL

Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

The point here is that pound per pound the Draconians don't have an upkeep and don't have a gem cost for each new individual summon.

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

Wrong... upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income. Income and upkeep can vary depending on the nation being played and the players style of playing.
Also I never said it was a design flaw.

[ July 14, 2004, 22:33: Message edited by: NTJedi ]