upkeep

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boron:
and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .

Yes, it makes more sense to me, although both troop types have very different uses. Still, 3 points that are worth mentionning:

(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

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They can be summoned individually, with 0 upkeep, at one magic site.


(2) I have many many uses for air gems, not so many for water - mostly Sea Trolls and small items like clams or boots - so even if I find myself with 45 air gems at a moment (rare) it's likely I will burn them into something else than Draconians.


Heh. So - because Water magic sucks so bad, and there are so few other decent uses for water gems, the sea trolls are fine as is?

(3) (...) I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone.

Sheesh. And 100 undead + 20 draconians has a lot more punch than 100 undead alone, as the draconians attack the commanders in the rear. 100 undead + 20 vine men has a lot more punch, 100 undead + 20 bog beasts, etc, etc. Your point is?

[ July 14, 2004, 21:48: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by NTJedi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.

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Yes, and to get that leader you need to summon the whole pack first. Exactly what I said.

Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

[NTJedi]

correct copy above

[ July 14, 2004, 22:34: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[NTJedi]

[quote]Originally posted by NTJedi:

Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

Yes, and to get that leader you need to summon the whole pack first. Exactly what I said.

The point here is the ZERO gems and no upkeep... somehow you missed that. LOL

Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

The point here is that pound per pound the Draconians don't have an upkeep and don't have a gem cost for each new individual summon.

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

Wrong... upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income. Income and upkeep can vary depending on the nation being played and the players style of playing.
Also I never said it was a design flaw.

[ July 14, 2004, 22:33: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
They can be summoned individually, with 0 upkeep, at one magic site.

Oh damn. Sure you're lucky enough to find this UNIQUE site just next to your capital in every game you play?

Heh. So - because Water magic sucks so bad, and there are so few other decent uses for water gems, the sea trolls are fine as is?

Heh. So - because everything that's rare is expensive, and cheap horses are rare, thus cheap horses must be expensive?

quote:

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(3) (...) I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone.

Sheesh. And 100 undead + 20 draconians has a lot more punch than 100 undead alone, as the draconians attack the commanders in the rear. 100 undead + 20 vine men has a lot more punch, 100 undead + 20 bog beasts, etc, etc. Your point is?

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My point was in the part you conveniently snipped. Look for the words 'amphibian' and 'need not eat', maybe that'll give you a clue. Draconians had none of these abilities Last time I checked.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?

No, for most nations I'd summon a single troll king's court to get the higher level earth mage, then spend all the rest of the earth gems on hammers, forging items, and summoning the construction based earth summons. I'd only bother with more trolls if I had most of my research completed, and was no longer purchasing any conventional units.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income.

Every casting of the troll king's courts adds either 45 or 55 gold to your upkeep costs. That is an extremely large expense that is very hard to justify in many cases.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

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the bigger the map the more likely it is that your income drops in the long run due to global enchantments like utterdark. then with common events most likely many events happened which killed population of you and so on .
the main problem with big maps is that you can cast summon trolls e.g. 5 - 10 times but then you will be at your upkeeplimit and you have much less flexibility than anyone who has summons which need no upkeep . they can spend the money on castles , pd , additional mages , whatever they like .

i still don't see what makes trolls / sea trolls so special compared to all other magic summons that they are the only ones who need horrible upkeep .

especially for water summons this is really not good because they can't rely heavily on the trolls . so in the long run building clams is most likely always better than summoning the trolls . the upkeep is really prohibitive for them . compared to national troops you still get quite much for your upkeep . 3,33 / 4 for sea / earth troll means that they would cost 50 / 60 gold so it is really hard to find national troops of this cost that kill a troll but that's not the point . every nation that doesn't need trolls / sea trolls but can summon death / nature ... creatures has this creatures + troops / mages worth 60 upkeep and so they always win against the trolls .
i think atlantis would be much more played if the sea trolls would cost no upkeep but loose their ability to get 1 watergem / turn .