upkeep

[Sheap]

Food and upkeep are different. Most units need food, which is called "supplies." This is calculated individually for each province. Each province has a number of supplies in it, which might be modified by growth or death scale, the size of the population and where the nearest friendly castle is. Some units don't need supplies (undead and trolls, and some summoned creatures) and some actually produce supplies. If there are more troops than supplies in the province, they starve. Starving units lose morale and get afflictions and diseases.

Upkeep is different. Upkeep is measured in gold, and it is calculated based on your whole empire. Every unit requires upkeep equal to 1/15 of its initial cost, or 1/30 of its cost if it is sacred. Most summoned units don't have any upkeep, but some (including trolls) do have upkeep. Trolls have lots of upkeep.

[Rainbow]

Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.

code:

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         Sz HP Prt Mor Mr Enc Str Att Def Pre MV

Vine Ogre 3 53  5  50  5   0  18  12   3   0 2/12 

SA: 100 PR, NNE, Mless, Frst Srvl



Troll     3 35 14  14 14   3  22  10   9   8 2/13 

SA: Regen (4), -25 FR, NNE, Mtn Srvl

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As I recall, trolls use two-handed mauls, and vine ogres use fists. It's going to hurt, bad. Hurts just thinking about it.

/Rainbow

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Rainbow:
Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.

Yes, Trolls are certanly stronger than Tree Ogres in equal numbers, no doubt about that. For somebody made out of wood, Tree Ogres have surprisingly thin skin, and there rest of their stats, other than hitpoints, are also unimpressive. They are very good meatshield that do not rout, but not much more.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Rainbow:
Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.
As I recall, trolls use two-handed mauls, and vine ogres use fists. It's going to hurt, bad. Hurts just thinking about it.

/Rainbow

100 trolls vs 100 vine ogres will win mostly yeah right . but as NTJedi and i said 100 trolls cost 400 upkeep . if you say everything is equal , you and your oppenent have about the same number of provinces and income and gemincome then your opponent can afford 40 150 gold cost mages or 20 300 gold cost mages for the 400 upkeep you pay for your 100 trolls .
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?

Originally posted by Norfleet:
While I agree that troll upkeep is greatly overpriced and strongly discourages the use of trolls, I think the point you're missing here is that trolls cannot be used like Vine Ogres!

Building up a massive hoard of vine ogres is a perfectly serviceable deal, since Vine Ogres cost nothing: Trolls, however, cannot be used in such a manner. Trolls are best lobbed at the enemy in suicide assaults that hopefully take ground, or at least distract your enemies, generally because they came as byproduct of the King summonings, and you want the king, not the trolls. Kings good, trolls bad . [/QB]

yep the kings themselves are quite useful . unfortunately they cost upkeep but for the special abilities you get from them ( especially the sea king ) their upkeep is reasonable .
the problem is that you can't summon a troll / sea troll king alone . you always get the in the long run unwanted trolls too .
the nettocost of a troll king is 30 gems .
if you already have earthmages ( e.g. ulm ) there is no need for a troll king .
a troll king has only earth 3 , costs 10 upkeep and 30 gems . a lamia queen is a much greater mage , costs only 15 gems and is the same conjuration level .

conclusion : the trolls / troll kings are almost useless the only reason why you perhaps summon 1-2 is if you want to ensure that you get decent earth magic item forgers .

the sea trolls / sea troll kings are a bit different because they are of greater use .
the sea trolls enable you to fight underwater .
the sea troll king has the unique ability to produce gems as non unique summon.
so for the sea troll kings i agree finally with Nagot Gick Fel that they but only they need upkeep costs but for a different reason .
if they would not need upkeep you could hord them . they produce water gems themselves and are water 3 mages . so after 45 turns you got repaid your summon costs . and you could forge hordes of clams with them with their own water gem income .

so either let the troll kings too generate 1 earthgem / turn or make them upkeepfree.

[tinkthank]

I think that the way their upkeep is set now, things are pretty darn good.
I think Zen got it right the first time: /Summoned Units With Upkeep [e.g. Trolls]/ are good in many situations but not perfect for all.
Let's not go about nerfing this and boosting that just because of a particular style.
We all *want* the fully automatic buckshot laser-guided neutron plasma uzi with the self-regenerating 80gig clip, but that would make the game a lot less sexy as everyone would just go out and get one.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Boron:
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?

I don't think this is really fair, since you've ignored the recruitment cost of the mages in question, which, over a short duration of time, makes up a significant fraction of the cost. Plus, the level of pummelling inflicted by 33 mystics varies from immense to irrelevant, depending on the level of research with which you're making this comparison.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boron:
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?

I don't think this is really fair, since you've ignored the recruitment cost of the mages in question, which, over a short duration of time, makes up a significant fraction of the cost. Plus, the level of pummelling inflicted by 33 mystics varies from immense to irrelevant, depending on the level of research with which you're making this comparison.

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that are some good points . arco is a bad example since it's hard for them to summon mass vine ogres .
but if you reach conjuration 6 to summon trolls your opponents which summon vine ogres e.g. have most likely reached conjuration 3 meanwhile + at least to lvl 3-4 in either evocation / alteration or traumaturgy where their short run most useful combat spells are .
so the mages can do pretty amounts of damage .
but my neglecting of the recruit costs was a fault for normal maps that's totally true .
but it's not too hazardous i think if i say you can have at least 5 combat mages for the saved upkeep with your vine ogres then .
so they will be at least a difficult opponent to the trolls but more likely even win .

finally i say it once more since it was mostly ignored in my previous statements my thoughts are primarily for the faerun map .
on the other maps like aran / desert eye the upkeep aspects / long run aspects are quite negligible but on faerun you surely will beat some of your close neighbors but if you keep to that tactic for lategame it is a burden for you .

if you can manage to kill the trolls in suicide attacks after 5-10 turns but keep your troll kings it's most likely ok but if you keep them longer you will notice your unneeded additional upkeep badly .