OberFuhrer, the Hobourg Special Hero!!!

[Cohen]

Personally I've even nothing against a FeldMarshall or such other terms.

They were military rank ... even if related to a movement and ideology that is seen in negative way, but they're words ... a simple work to recognize something.

[tinkthank]

Hee hee yes.

While it was silly of whomever it was to believe that because Illwinter may have installed a commander named "Oberführer" that they shared sympathy with national socialism of the pre-war German bent, it is not incorrect to mention that certain words (including singular termini) have become bound up, in certain contexts, with other meaning.

(I happen to be an analytic philosopher (philosophy of language), and recently wrote a book on singular terms and their meanings: the shameless plug to the amazon link
-- it is written in German however.)

(Edit: removed a ridiculous half-phrase typo here)

Thus many people may (rightly) be worried by the (otherwise unqualified) placement of a character named "Oberführer" in a game. Not that the placement here indicates anything of the sort -- far from it. But it is equally silly to maintain that any "usage" of any word should be Banned: I know I shouldnt be saying this, but "words" don't have "meanings", *utterances of signs* can have "meanings" (the word meaning itself is very complicated, as you can imagine; there was a pretty crappy book called "The Meaning of Meaning" written by Osgood and Richards, which has since been commented on muchly, most famously by Hilary Putnam in his article "The Meaning of the Meaning of Meaning" (this is not a joke)) *when used as speech acts*. (I can hear Norfleet yelling "guns don't kill people, people kill people!" at me in the background.)

But don't we all secretly wear little black trenchcoats and black boots and those tiny moustaches and hide in the ... oh wait, sorry, forget that.

[ July 14, 2004, 12:30: Message edited by: tinkthank ]

[PrinzMegaherz]

Personally I've even nothing against a FeldMarshall or such other terms.

Actually, Feldmarshall is no word associated with WW2 (at least not in germany). Words with a negativ association are Sturm and Führer. The modern german army has no rank including one of these words (although there some functions still using the word führer)

[Chazar]

Being german, I can also understand that the hoburgs title will certainly irritate people in germany, including me a tiny bit, but I cant say actually why if I try to think about it...

I am no expert on this, but if I think of my own everyday speech, I would hardly say "Führer" but rather "Anführer". I cant tell the difference between those two, except that the latter has no negative meaning to it...

[Boron]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
What astonished me after traveling in Germany is the laws against any Nazi insignias (a good example is the flag) even if it is done in a teaching or historical presentation. Correct me if I am wrong but is it not illegal in Germany to have even the Nazi flag in a game? From working on a Hearts of Iron (Paradox)Mod I remember that the game did not come with a Nazi flag because of this law. Now I understand that it could be offensive towards some people. Hell I lost two Uncles in that damned war fighting Germany but is it not riskier to close our eyes to history. If we deny the truths of history and hide from it you know damned well that we will repeat it! In fact I think we are on the road already. Embrace histrory for its good and evil, look at it in the eye and learn or before long it will stab us in the back!

that's right if you e.g. possess such an old flag or an old ss uniform you go to prison in germany . but your conclusion is very wrong .
by even forbidding to only own such a sign germany does not close her eyes from history but wants to show the world that it is very aware of it .
our government just wants to guarantee by that that the really bad and evil nazi time is in no way glorified . but we are taught the history of the nazitime in history at school very accurate but with focus on the bad things that happened so that everybody can see what a big fault this was.

if illwinter would sell dominions in german stores it even could unfortunately happen by such a clumsy used word that it would be Banned in germany.
another law is that you may not see blood in fps shooters in german. you may import an english Version when you are over 18 but if you are under 18 you have to use the censored german Version . this laws are a bit ridiculous but they were made because of the context to avoid a new "3rd Reich" germany . perhaps they go to far but this won't change in germany for at least the next 20 years .
it has it good and bad sides .

but almost every german and natural german speaking person like somebody from austria or switzerland will understand oberführer only in nazicontext .
it was intended as a joke by illwinter but if they want to distribute dominions 3 regulary because of such a bad joke it could be forbidden in germany . c&c generals was e.g. forbidden because of that in germany .

i didn't want to start such a big discussion i wanted only to inform you that this word is one of the really few offensive words for every german.
if it is in return to castle wolfenstein e.g. it's something else because there it is funny but in a fantasy game it destroys a bit of the atmosphere.
it would be much cooler and absolutely bps-save if the hoburg special heros were named frodo beutlin ....

[reverend]

I thought the uncensored Version of RtCW was forbidden? (uncensored = not only blood, but also the original textures for swastikas).

While we're on it, another interesting tidbit for non-Europeans :
There are no license plates with SS, NS, KZ or HJ in Germany. Did I leave some out?


PS: Erstaunlich wieviele Deutsche bei so einem Thema aus der Versenkung gekrochen kommen.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by reverend:
I thought the uncensored Version of RtCW was forbidden? (uncensored = not only blood, but also the original textures for swastikas).

I can't imagine why...given that the objective of all the Wolfensteins has never been to glorify Nazis, but instead to caricature and parody them while blowing them away in ever-increasing numbers. There's a singular elegance to choosing Nazis to be your villains, since you won't get anyone complaining about your treatment of them in the game.

[ July 14, 2004, 19:26: Message edited by: Norfleet ]