OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Pickles:
The other games must be truly dire (I tried AoW and it was)

I think you've understood my point.

Gandalf's comment about Dom 2 being "good" in SP for a game that's intended to be played MP is spot on. AoW and its ilk spent too much money on coding graphics and not enough on AI. But AI coding is hard work, and graphics is pretty straightforward (given today's toolkits). Warlords 3 had decent AI (not great, just decent). But that (and AoW) are simpler games than Dom 2. Being simpler makes it all the more annoying that a game has an inferior AI. With all the many flaws the Dom 2 AI has, it's still decent enough to whip the stuffing out of noobs, and there aren't many games I know of that can do that.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Kel:
I wouldn't want them to alter the gameplay significantly to make it MP but if they added MP as an afterthought, without changing SP, I wouldn't mind. It wouldn't be great MP, battles would probably have to be computer run, but as long as it didn't affect SP, it would just be a bonus (like the hotseat MP shell was).

Actually there was an addon program that let you play MoM multiplayer. Well hotseat. It worked pretty well but tended to show why MP didnt work well in MoM.

Its very hard for MP and SP to share a game. I loved things in MoM like maybe starting off with a great resource inside my capital cities zone. Or the irritation of having a big lair next to me which I know is going to start tossing wandering units out before I can take it. Or the difference between one hero showing up (YAY!) or another (not worth the money).

In MP those are all "unfair". Multiplayer games dont want things to be decided by random events instead of by player actions. They want fair and equal maps and starting positions. They want interesting events but not majorly plus or minus to the player. They want no chance that someone will end up starting so fantastically, or so horribly, that you quit and generate a new game for a more playable start.

Im not saying any of that is bad. Its just that a game pretty much has to decide ahead of time if design decisions are going to be in favor of good MP play or in favor of good SP play when they seem to conflict. Or, which is even worse, a middle-of-the-road little-bit-good for both. Its very hard to do either MP or SP well. Its VERY hard to do them both well. Dom2 and Space Empires IV (both Shrapnel games) are the closest Ive seen in my decades of playing games. I just want my MoM back. Then they can mess with it.

[Pickles]

Originally posted by Arryn:
" With all the many flaws the Dom 2 AI has, it's still decent enough to whip the stuffing out of noobs, and there aren't many games I know of that can do that."

It seems to do it by ganging up on you rather than by out playing you though. The thing is an exercise in frustration chasing down random attacks.

To reply to Gandalf about randomness - I consider dom 2 to be too random for a serious MP game really. eg my first MP game I lost 1/4 of my population turn one with + luck and a lucky pretender - half my net income.
The fun of the process of teh game though makes this bearable - you are only really likely to be screwed in the firt half dozen turns which is not much of a commitment for a quick defeat!

Pickles

I just wanted to butt into the conversation here with Pickles.

Re: Luck

Yes, this game does depend pretty heavily on luck. Though everyone is on the same 'bad luck' scale. Where you are getting flooded, your opponent has his temple burn down on turn 2. While another player has a knight attack on his only high income provine on turn 6.

I used to get very frustrated in with this when playing MP (I seem to have a magnet for events), but eventually I found that I was able to compensate for it by everyone elses bad luck and those few good luck events that really put things into perspective.

A more determining factor than luck of events is luck of starting position/provincal defense. I find that has more of an impact how I play than random (un)lucky events.

P.S. When are you going to start making maps for Dom2?!

[Kel]

Oh, I understand, and agree, Gandalf.

Just as Dom2 is a strong MP game and, imo, a not so strong SP game...if they did give MoM2 MP capabilities, I would hope it would be the reverse, with it being a great SP game and just an ok MP game.

- Kel

PS, to anyone propagating this graphics bashing trend, it's getting pretty old. Good graphics may not make a game but bad graphics hardly make a game better. I can point to just as many bad games with bad graphics as you can bad games with good graphics

[Pickles]

"Just as Dom2 is a strong MP game and, imo, a not so strong SP game...if they did give MoM2 MP capabilities, I would hope it would be the reverse, with it being a great SP game and just an ok MP game."

Not sure I see the point - who would play it ? SP dom2 is training as far as I am concerned.


"Good graphics may not make a game but bad graphics hardly make a game better."


hear hear - and interface even more so.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Pickles:
To reply to Gandalf about randomness - I consider dom 2 to be too random for a serious MP game really. eg my first MP game I lost 1/4 of my population turn one with + luck and a lucky pretender - half my net income.
The fun of the process of teh game though makes this bearable - you are only really likely to be screwed in the firt half dozen turns which is not much of a commitment for a quick defeat!

Actually that fits my comments. Its nearly impossible for a game to do both. Everyone pretty much agrees that Dom2 is MP with some SP. But even the SP it has causes MPers to get mad. Im mostly SP so the things I would request (random maps, more events, alittle more random in combat, better AI) are all things that I know arent going to be as high on the list as things that are more MP oriented.

In MoM one of my favorite spells was charm. I loved going into caves with one guy and trying to win it by charming the basilisk. Of course I always saved before hand and reloaded if I failed. And that was many many times. That favorite spell of mine would quickly be targeted by MPers as needing fixed. They want a combat to be a formula so that it can be used strategically, not as a luck roll.

One of the best efforts at a MoM2 was "Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic". Is seemed obvious that they did it on purpose. That Lasted a month on my machine and MoM is still on my machine. Why? Im not totally sure. But it just felt too watered down. It was multiplayer. It was basically, exactly, what a multiplayer MoM would be. Others can try to pin it down further. All I know is that it didnt hold my attention even though it seemed like an awfully good MoM update.

[Kel]

Originally posted by Pickles:
Not sure I see the point - who would play it ? SP dom2 is training as far as I am concerned.

There are a lot of things that are not considered MP-friendly, such as high randomization, that some people, like me, don't mind all the time.

It doesn't actually cause a game to be more luck based as reacting to randomness is part of skill...but in terms of it being competitive, who will actually win, it does become more luck based and that understandably bothers a lot of people.

The people who would play, I assume, would be people that don't mind this randomness or people who simply like MoM enough to play it MP (as there are clearly people who enjoy playing Dom2 SP, though I am with you on that count).

- Kel

PS: While I didn't play the expansion for it, I did play AoW and I actually didn't think it was much like MoM. So far, one huge thing that most of those games is missing is the whole Civ style empire building aspect of the game.

[ July 23, 2004, 19:51: Message edited by: Kel ]

[Cainehill]

[quote]Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
In MoM one of my favorite spells was charm. I loved going into caves with one guy and trying to win it by charming the basilisk. Of course I always saved before hand and reloaded if I failed. And that was many many times. That favorite spell of mine would quickly be targeted by MPers as needing fixed. They want a combat to be a formula so that it can be used strategically, not as a luck roll.


Yet Dom2 has Charm, Succubus, and Hellbind Heart. The key to the spell being viable for MP is that you can't save and reload - it's a crap shoot, as are several other spells in Dom2 (like the ones that have a 50% chance of killing an enemy commander, 50% to come back, or Stream of Life - 40% it kills the enemy, 60% it heals, hastes, etc).

One of the best efforts at a MoM2 was "Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic". Is seemed obvious that they did it on purpose. That Lasted a month on my machine and MoM is still on my machine. Why? Im not totally sure. But it just felt too watered down. It was multiplayer. It was basically, exactly, what a multiplayer MoM would be. Others can try to pin it down further. All I know is that it didnt hold my attention even though it seemed like an awfully good MoM update.

I wouldn't call it a MoM update, as a number of things were very different. As Kel said - it didn't have the 4X (or Civ2) feel that MoM did, scouting, sending out settlers (pioneers?) and hoping for great sites.

I found that the game bogged down - individual units in squads, 9 units per squad, up to 4 squads per side, made for long grinding battles. Likewise some of the maps and scenarios were too large and started to stagnate for me.

And, worst of all, the ... linear scenarios. First you got one kind of magic. Then you got a different kind. And when you got to a scenario you hated, too bad - either finish that one and hope for better, or stop playing.

I never played AoW multiplayer - maybe it's actually better that way, but ....

One I personally miss (and should post on the other OT thread) is the original Warlords. Minimal micromanagement, fairly quickpaced, each race played differently and each had several possible immediate courses of action. It was great for hot-seat MP games, especially with multiple computers - we'd set up 2 or 3 computers in an apartment and have multiple games going, so people didn't have to wait too long to have a turn to take.

Anacreon was another me and my friends did that with - take home some laptop computers from work for the weekend and game away.

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by Pickles:

'Cos Dom 2 is terrible SP and MOM wasn't?

(this may be 10 years and a general disatisfaction with SP talking. I do remember longing to play MOM MP.)

Pickles

That's your opinion, and I surely disagree.