bitter pill to swallow

[Merry Jolkar]

I was definately in positive dominion (otherwise I would not have hurried back to defend!) It is still +6. I suppose I hit the 50 turn limit. It's unfortunate, because this was definately *NOT* and endless battle. I had just about wiped out the entire enemy army, and was super-buffed. I really think the rules for routing should take into account how well you are doing. I understand the need to end an endless battle, but if over the course of the battle one is winning, why end it??

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cheezeninja:
I thought immortal commanders were supposed to never retreat in positive dominion?

Where'd you get that silly idea? The only thing special about immortals in friendly dom is that if they die they pop back up the next turn in your capital, saving you many turns of having to pray for your god to resurrect (which is what happens if your immortal dies outside of friendly dom).

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Hmmm. I had the same silly notion.

It certainly *used* to be true that immortals in positive dominion never retreat... has this been changed recently?



Rabe the Ringed

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by rabelais:

quote:

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Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cheezeninja:
I thought immortal commanders were supposed to never retreat in positive dominion?

Where'd you get that silly idea? The only thing special about immortals in friendly dom is that if they die they pop back up the next turn in your capital, saving you many turns of having to pray for your god to resurrect (which is what happens if your immortal dies outside of friendly dom).

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Hmmm. I had the same silly notion.

It certainly *used* to be true that immortals in positive dominion never retreat... has this been changed recently?

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Immortal troops retreat like crazy - vampires spawned by VQs run like crazy. I didn't think immortal commanders did - at least, they definately didn't seem to, based on a couple of soul gate Ermor games I had.

And the pre-turn tip certainly says that immortal pretenders, at least, never retreat in friendly dominion, "Immortal gods never retreat when fighting in a friendly dominion."

[Merry Jolkar]

In my case, the retreat was due to the turn limit. This turn limit is a major flaw. It means that a pretender super combatant is guaranteed to retreat whenever facing an army with more units than it can kill. For my SC VQ, that number is equal to the number of turns in the limit (which I think is 50).

I also think it strange that a flying commander cannot simply fly back to behind its castle walls! I imagine my VQ's flight instructor was pulling he r hair out when she saw her instead try to flee past the castle into the next province only to melt!

How does one suggest fixes for the next patch?

Merry

[ July 24, 2004, 13:47: Message edited by: Merry Jolkar ]

[Boron]

Originally posted by Merry Jolkar:
In my case, the retreat was due to the turn limit. This turn limit is a major flaw. It means that a pretender super combatant is guaranteed to retreat whenever facing an army with more units than it can kill. For my SC VQ, that number is equal to the number of turns in the limit (which I think is 50).

I also think it strange that a flying commander cannot simply fly back to behind its castle walls! I imagine my VQ's flight instructor was pulling he r hair out when she saw her instead try to flee past the castle into the next province only to melt!

How does one suggest fixes for the next patch?

Merry

yeah 50 turns is a bit low . i played around a bit Last days with vq's .
one not so funny thing was when i fought against ermor the ai was quite "clever" and had 10-12 dusk elders/spectators in the army + 5xx undead .
in my first attack i killed ~450 undeads before autoretreat after turn 50. the vq was NOT equipped well.
when i attacked next turn the 12 dusk elders constantly spammed sceletons and that was enough to keep my vq busy for 50 turns ^^.
the problem is that i need 3 turns for buffs and in this 3 turns the ermor dusk elder spawn 100+ undeads . then they can keep a constant spawning of new ones. it was just enough to reach turn 50 always when ~5-10 undead where left some dusk elders got beyond fatigue 100 again and spawned new skelletons .
the main problem for that is the bad ai.
at turn 3 when my buffs are finished most likely the first enemies reach my vq . also i scripted her attack rearmost or attack biggest enemy she just stayed in melee with the skelletons most time . even if she luckily attacks one dusk elder the other will most likely never be attacked because before she attacks the next one she is in melee with some garbage summons like skelettons .

i think if not equipped with really high end equipment ( some uniques ) a vq has almost no chance to ever kill 10-15 death / air mages constantly spamming skelletons or phantasmal warriors/false horrors .
50 combat turns are to short .
it should be increased to 200-250 turns .

you often lose a battle where you get luckily e.g. paralyzed for 30 turns . you would easily beat the enemy army but in the left ~15 turns you can kill only 3/4 or so of the army .
while you can't get damaged because you have e.g. soul vortex + invulnerability up .

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Boron:
yeah 50 turns is a bit low . i played around a bit Last days with vq's .
one not so funny thing was when i fought against ermor the ai was quite "clever" and had 10-12 dusk elders/spectators in the army + 5xx undead .
in my first attack i killed ~450 undeads before autoretreat after turn 50. the vq was NOT equipped well.
when i attacked next turn the 12 dusk elders constantly spammed sceletons and that was enough to keep my vq busy for 50 turns ^^.
the problem is that i need 3 turns for buffs and in this 3 turns the ermor dusk elder spawn 100+ undeads . then they can keep a constant spawning of new ones. it was just enough to reach turn 50 always when ~5-10 undead where left some dusk elders got beyond fatigue 100 again and spawned new skelletons .
the main problem for that is the bad ai.
at turn 3 when my buffs are finished most likely the first enemies reach my vq . also i scripted her attack rearmost or attack biggest enemy she just stayed in melee with the skelletons most time . even if she luckily attacks one dusk elder the other will most likely never be attacked because before she attacks the next one she is in melee with some garbage summons like skelettons .

i think if not equipped with really high end equipment ( some uniques ) a vq has almost no chance to ever kill 10-15 death / air mages constantly spamming skelletons or phantasmal warriors/false horrors .
50 combat turns are to short .
it should be increased to 200-250 turns .

you often lose a battle where you get luckily e.g. paralyzed for 30 turns . you would easily beat the enemy army but in the left ~15 turns you can kill only 3/4 or so of the army .
while you can't get damaged because you have e.g. soul vortex + invulnerability up .

What I like about your post Boron, is that your examples works as well or better as an argument to keep a short turn limit.

[Boron]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
What I like about your post Boron, is that your examples works as well or better as an argument to keep a short turn limit.

i am not against the turn limit and i think it is necessary . the only point is that it perhaps should be extended to 75 or 100 turns instead of 50 .

i don't know if intended or not but the 50 turns work as a small limitation for sc's. that's a good thing .
if there would be no turn limit or a limit at 200+ turns sc's especially immortal ones would be even more dominant cause they could do even more damage .
it would most likely imbalance the game towards air+death magic . 10 dusk elders summoning skeletons could keep a vq most likely busy for 100 turns too with only slightly worse odds than doing that for 50 turns.

but you would need a proportionally bigger conventional army to reach the turnlimit without beeing completely wiped out . while with the current 50 turns e.g. 500 maenards may be enough to keep an sc busy until turn 50 you would need 2000 until turn 200 .

so the turnlimit indirectly weakens sc's a bit and that's good because they are already perhaps a bit too strong .
a curious question : when you decided the 50 turns battle limit did you have in mind to weaken sc's a bit or what was the main reason for 50 turns ?
i have no clue about programming but i think an alternative model of infinite combat turns would have been even easier to program .
and i see no example where an infinite combat would really Last infinite long because if you are fatigued you slowly recover and then combat goes on . so sometime there would always be a real winner .
do you btw plan unlimited or limited combat turns for dominions 3 ?