So how 'bout those Mets?

[archaeolept]

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

[Gandalf Parker]

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

Actually those conversations were well followed, and in fact the VQ was changed. The clam conversations are also followed but no solution has come forth. Of course these are a couple of minor points in the overall list of things being worked on. There were also acknowledgments given by the developers and the beta team members. You might take note of the people who did receive answers, specifically the differences between their threads and the wording of them. Again, the end justifiying the means does not fly with everyone if you are waiting for some sort of thank you response.

Im sure if I worded this in the same language and tone that some people use to put their points across, that it would be much better understood. Unfortunately I would get in trouble for that unless I created a new login and sent it anonymously.

[archaeolept]

heh, nah I don't care. Dom II is filled w/ such a bunch of curmudgeons that such things as apologies or thanks are generally rarer than hens' teeth in a disco.

I don't feel that moderation, and public feedback on the issues was that stellar, but whatever. Illwinter hasn't been ignoring the problems, obviously, and deserve respect for their hard work, and for the even more work they'll be doing in the future.

[Gandalf Parker]

heh, nah I don't care. Dom II is filled w/ such a bunch of curmudgeons that such things as apologies or thanks are generally rarer than hens' teeth in a disco.

I don't feel that moderation, and public feedback on the issues was that stellar, but whatever. Illwinter hasn't been ignoring the problems, obviously, and deserve respect for their hard work, and for the even more work they'll be doing in the future.

No it wasnt stellar. They cant participate in these discussions the way that we can. The developers tend to make 1 answer in a thread and then a few pages later people are complaining that the devs are clueless about it even though nothing was said to change the first answer. Beta tester responses are abit more frequent. And of course the most numerous come from the player-tester folks which are appreciated.

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

No, the reason it was dismissed was because there was no proven factual information in it. The tiring "Norfleet beat me with X and I don't think that is fare" is not a good enough excuse, ever. If someone else replaces it, if suddenly Tauren13 starts beating everyone with Lord of the Gates and Stingers, we're not going to use the logical thinking that he must be cheating and take the concerns of what the issues are (I.E. Lord of the Gates and Stingers) for their value in standard game, not some sort of cheating game.

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

And it was exactly the opposite of what people said "The VQ is broken" and not "Norfleet is cheating with the VQ". In such discussions, newbies were coming up with their own horror stories of getting beat by one handed Vampires with oodles of clams saying it was fact. Maybe an investigation should be done by anyone who stood on the 'pro-nerf' side of the fence of anything, yeah? Damn cheaters.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

Then the VQ wouldn't have been balanced as it was, for the reasonings that it was. Clams wouldn't have been disregarded as "Something that can be exploited, if you have exactly the right circumstances" and Castles would all cost 600 Gold, yes?

The price of using such broad statements is you tend to selectively forget the past conversations and reasons why things were done or in this case, not done.

[archaeolept]

lol, as I remember, the "selective forgetting" has more been a policy of this forum, through the wholesale deleting of Posts it does not like.

It was clear to many that something or things were broken. The general response from the forum old guard was to stick fingers in their ears. I certainly couldn't tell if norfleet was hacking files, or if clamming were absurdly abusable, or what exactly. But there was certainly something broken, yet that was actively denied by those who should have remained neutral in the discussions then.

turn files were certainly available to anyone who wished to see what all the fuss was about. I know I didn't refuse any requests to examine them.

Again, I'm glad that some sort of resolution has been achieved. I certainly hope that illwinter is able to figure out a tougher security regimen. However, until then i'm not about to stop playing.

No it wasnt stellar. They cant participate in these discussions the way that we can

actually i wasn't referring to the devs, who, while remaining distant from the fray, certainly evidenced to me a genuine interest in the apparent problems on our part.

No, the reason it was dismissed was because there was no proven factual information in it. The tiring "Norfleet beat me with X and I don't think that is fare" is not a good enough excuse, ever

again, turn files were available. It was dismissed out of arrogance. No one ever simply made a complaint "oh noes I was beaten that's not possible", but rather wondered how such vast resources were possible w/out a bug or broken game mechanic. People who used the word "broken" were told off in no uncertain terms by Moderators of this forum. Now, that is a fact. I would reccomend rereading some of Rabe's insightful and informative Posts on the VQ issue, for instance.

lol, as I remember, the "selective forgetting" has more been a policy of this forum, through the wholesale deleting of Posts it does not like.

Perhaps a policy of active readers or posters. As for wholesale deletion of Posts? Are you reading the same board as I am? As far as I know, post deletion is the very Last method of moderation that is ever taken and it's not taken lightly. Most often it/they are moved to the moderator forum for viewing of not only other Moderators but administrators. In my time here, I have only deleted a handful of individual Posts and I believe only one thread that was not requested. I have however, had to edit numerous Posts, give plenty of warning PM's and in general wonder at the maturity of people as they get worked up about a /game/.

It was clear to many that something or things were broken. The general response from the forum old guard was to stick fingers in their ears. I certainly couldn't tell if norfleet was hacking files, or if clamming were absurdly abusable, or what exactly. But there was certainly something broken, yet that was actively denied by those who should have remained neutral in the discussions then.

It has been said I don't know how many times for people to send their files to info@illwinter.com for any kind of hokiness. If you didn't get that memo, there isn't much I can do. Actively denied that someone was cheating? I can't remember much of the discussion off hand, but I believe any allusions to 'cheating' were not very prominant and the only instance of it that really cropped up was in Stormbinder's GG game, where much of the general populace doesn't consider 'Playing under another name and denying it if questioned' cheating.

I don't remember any Posts saying "Norfleet hacked the game" but instead said "X is overpowered because Norfleet keeps beating me with it".

Again, I'm glad that some sort of resolution has been achieved. I certainly hope that illwinter is able to figure out a tougher security regimen. However, until then i'm not about to stop playing.

If anything that is all that has been done, maybe more priority given to what was already something that was being pursued (cheat prevention that is). I would hope noone would stop playing, and I would also hope that everyone won't go *** crazy every time they are getting beat in a game and start accusing people of cheating. But if you do think you are, you always have the option of either figuring it out on your own (via your own methods) or sending it to IW for a looksie.