So how 'bout those Mets?

[johan osterman]

Or that some of the people with an agenda against him went "beyond the pale". I certainly don't think you (as the host) had anything to do with it.

But something irks me, from a logical point of view. Supposedly Norfleet had _17_ dwarven hammers on turn 22 or 23. To me, that's nuts - maybe at turn 40, or 60, someone might have use for 17 hammers.

But at turn 23, it's conspicuously wasteful - you can't _use_ that many hammers, even if the cost of creating them was negligible. That's something fishy, to me.

It seems just as likely to me, that someone figured out how to cheat and used that to frame Norfleet in so hugely blatant and obvious a way that he could start calling out, in what was for him an oddly reasonable tone of voice, "Say, partner, can you explain what I think I see here?"

Knowing the forged evidence is so damning that the jury will already have decided to hang, no matter the explanation : "I don't know how those stolen cattle got into my pen. The 17 dwarven sheep in the bedroom? No sense even talking about them."

As I say - given the animosities involved, this seems as credible as someone going so far off the deep end as to actually forge 17 dwarven hammers while cheating. (If you're capable of cheating so massively on gems - _WHY_ do you need all the hammers?)

Another fishy thing, from another game : How does an artifact (the Holy Grail) simply disappear from the magic item stash, with a message saying "Suddenly the Chalice was not found in the laboratory anymore".

No need to go all conspiracy minded. The simpler explanation is that Norfleet either hacked the files or used some sort of glitch he discovered, which would be tantamount to cheating. Add to the submitted files that Norfleet has, on more than one occasion I believe, triggered the cheat protections in the game, and also to my knowledge he is one of the very few if not the only forum acitve player that has done this in MP. While it is not irrefutably certain that he did cheat I think it is by far the most likely and obvious explanation.

The chalice dissappeared because the knights of the chalice came and quested for it.

[johan osterman]

I also want to point out that if the part of Kristoffers mail that Cainhill quoted is all that Stormbinder posted, the mail has recieved some editing before being quoted. I was reading over Kristoffers shoulder when he wrote it and the original tone of the letter was not intended to be congratulatory but to say 'you were right, it is there for everyone to see, be satisfied with that and move on' in response to Stormbinder feeling that Norfleet got the Last word when the thread was locked, I think the parts of the mail posted skewes the tone of it somewhat.

[archaeolept]

^^ heh lol. that's not completely surprising either

[Gandalf Parker]

^^ heh lol. that's not completely surprising either

What can you expect? If someone tells me that my dog is loose then I will thank him. If he yells at the whole neighborhood, calling names, threatens with a police call, and generally makes the entire block sick of it; then acknowledgment is all he will get if even that. Nobody wants to thank an ........ (various words tested and deleted) except maybe sarcastically even if after the fact he shouts "isnt anyone going to thank me?".

[archaeolept]

??? I was referring to Johan's post. I don't understand what your reply to my post concerns.

[Cainehill]

Gandalf:

What can you expect? If someone tells me that my dog is loose then I will thank him. If he yells at the whole neighborhood, calling names, threatens with a police call, and generally makes the entire block sick of it; then acknowledgment is all he will get if even that. Nobody wants to thank an ........ (various words tested and deleted) except maybe sarcastically even if after the fact he shouts "isnt anyone going to thank me?".

I'm pretty sure that archeolept was referring to Stormbinder's selective editing of the message as not being a surprise at all, as he consistently interprets (and sometimes distorts) things to fit his own self-chosen messianic role.

Hmm - is there _any_ way to get the person's name to show up on the same line as the "Quote:"? Very wasteful of space as is, and also somewhat frustrating to not be able to see _whom_ was being quoted, which is the default.

[jimbo]

Coming in very late on all this but I can't resist commenting on this subject, since I suspected Norfleet of cheating from the very first game I ever played in with him, and have thought about that far more than I ever cared to.

To me, he was the very worst of cheaters - one who was good enough to win many of the games he played in without cheating, but he did it anyway. Thus, whenever you called him on it, and I did once, he was able to give very detailed and just maybe plausible explanations for how he had achieved his results.

Strangely, however, when I followed his instructions TO THE LETTER in a subsequent game as the exact same race, I didn't get anywhere near the same results. The anywhere near part is key - I can accept some level of variance but totally not at the same level...hmmmm...

Having talked some to another player in a game with Norfleet, once again he somehow managed to hit the totally perfect start position (i.e. for example, found two sage sites on the first 2 turns when he doesn't even use his god to search) and was dominant in all categories, with no one beating him in any of them. Gee, how lucky was that! And every time too!

So in the end I knew in my heart was cheating but my head said maybe I'm just missing something (and I am sure Norfleet has far more knowledge of the game than I do) and I can never prove it anyway so whats the point. I am happy someone finally did. I had decided a while ago to simply not play in any games Norfleet was in since I believed in my heart he was cheating.

From the above Posts there seems to be some people defending him and possibly even wondering if he really was a cheater. If he is innocent, then he can very easily prove it. He can give someone his step by step what to do to achieve his results, they can post it here for him, and we should all be able to play the game and have at least some us achieve a comparable result in some games.

I remain convinced that if he chose to do this either none of us would be able to achieve close to the same result (i.e. he is throwing out more BS which he can do easily since he knows the game so well) OR it would involve some "miracle occurs here" step that almost of all of us would look at and say "hey thats cheating!" And that should be the working definition of cheating for all intensive purposes.

[Kel]

If someone tells me that my dog is loose then I will thank him. If he yells at the whole neighborhood, calling names, threatens with a police call, and generally makes the entire block sick of it; then acknowledgment is all he will get if even that. Nobody wants to thank an ........ (various words tested and deleted) except maybe sarcastically even if after the fact he shouts "isnt anyone going to thank me?".

This sums up my thoughts pretty well. Personally, my first thought was "Hey, the boy who cried wolf all night finally found one".

Cheating is unforgivable, cheaters should be Banned on first offense and the evidence that *Kristoffer* posted is sufficient to convince me, in the absence of any contradiction, that Norf cheated or abused a bug or something of a similar and illicit nature.

That said, it is not out of the realm of possibility that Storm would do something equally as illicit to get rid of someone he didn't like and most people who have been around a while might at least understand why I might say that. I mean, they were going to have some inane deathmatch which, if Norf lost, he would have to stop playing Dom2 here entirely, for god's sake !

However, *that* said, the only impartial evidence is pointing at Norf so I can accept that. As someone said, Occam's Razor and all. It doesn't change that, to me, Storm's contribution to the community was entirely an inadvertant by-product of his otherwise antagonistic personality.

- Kel

[Vicious Love]

Not to start yet another flamelest, but I'm constantly astonished by just how ingrateful we can seem at times. Honestly, the Dom 2 team, which is just barely large enough to be called that, has done more for the fanbase than any major game corporation. Clearly, this game is a Derek Smartesque labor of love.
Honestly, before we start making demands and accusations, I suggest we contemplate how anyone could put so much effort into a game, and still take the time to pander to the fans at every other turn.

[Cainehill]

Johan:

No need to go all conspiracy minded. The simpler explanation is that Norfleet either hacked the files or used some sort of glitch he discovered, which would be tantamount to cheating. Add to the submitted files that Norfleet has, on more than one occasion I believe, triggered the cheat protections in the game, and also to my knowledge he is one of the very few if not the only forum acitve player that has done this in MP. While it is not irrefutably certain that he did cheat I think it is by far the most likely and obvious explanation.

Oh, I agree 100% that it is more _likely_ that Norfleet was cheating - Occam's Razor and all that. I simply (?) wanted to raise an alternative theory that, while not as simple, could also explain things. I'm certainly also willing to admit that I'm willing to give Norfleet more of a benefit of the doubt that Stormbinder, but that's a matter of history and personal animosity.

Both Stormbinder and I would be disqualified from an jury for this matter that didn't believe in "hang first, ask questions later".

The chalice dissappeared because the knights of the chalice came and quested for it.

So the knights might be carrying the chalice now? Interesting. Thanks.