So how 'bout those Mets?

[Truper]

I thought you were smarter than that. Norfleet was in fact a well worn topic of discussion in the dominions developer forum. And in the shrapnel Moderators forum. Norfleet had sanctions against him and a watchful eye on his actions well before Stormbinder started being so loud. You sound like a high school kid who is mad that he doesnt know what goes on in the teachers lounge.

And so we come to the most patronizing comment yet. "Trust us kiddies, even though we grownups have made no mention in any public place that there has been a problem here at school, rest assured that we in our wisdom have taken steps to insure your safety and well-being. It is not for you to know what's being done, or even that anything is being done, just trust us and everything will be fine. Now just run along and go play in the schoolyard, while we get back to our serious buisiness in the teachers lounge."

It has of course been possible to read between the lines of various occurances in the forums, the patches and elsewhere to infer that there is a real problem, and that things have been done about it, but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

[Gandalf Parker]

but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

Please do a search and give me some examples. What problems were not acknowledged by Illwinter? I got tired of telling people to SEARCH or READ the whole thread. Usually Kristoffer O, Johan O, or Johan K, replied quite nicely early in the thread. The fact that they stopped replying, and sometimes even stopped reading, a thread later when it got less informative and more demanding seems to be a lesson that some people never quite figured out. The beta testers tended to hang on the longest but eventually even the most diplomatic of them tends to drop off. Searching on those names and doing some reading should make it clear to most how to best get something accomplished (and how to best screw it up).

[Truper]

Please do a search and give me some examples. What problems were not acknowledged by Illwinter? I got tired of telling people to SEARCH or READ the whole thread. Usually Kristoffer O, Johan O, or Johan K, replied quite nicely early in the thread. The fact that they stopped replying, and sometimes even stopped reading, a thread later when it got less informative and more demanding seems to be a lesson that some people never quite figured out. The beta testers tended to hang on the longest but eventually even the most diplomatic of them tends to drop off. Searching on those names and doing some reading should make it clear to most how to best get something accomplished (and how to best screw it up).

Firstly, I have read the entire thread, and in fact, you'd have to go pretty far to find a single post on this entire board that I haven't read. Secondly, I am not trying to accomplish anything here, besides chastising you for being patronizing. Thirdly, if you read the now-closed original thread, Kristoffer did nothing beyond posting a list of what Norfleet had in the game in question, letting the facts speak for themselves, as it were. While I can't really blame him for that, you'll note that he did not say: "this has been hacked or otherwise manipulated, and I'm investigating how it was done and will try to come up with a method to prevent it happening again". That is what I meant by "no explicit statement".

[Gandalf Parker]

Truper said:

Firstly, I have read the entire thread,

Ahh you were talking about one thread? One started by Stormbinder? Or one started by Norfleet?

Truper said:

While I can't really blame him for that, you'll note that he did not say: "this has been hacked or otherwise manipulated, and I'm investigating how it was done and will try to come up with a method to prevent it happening again". That is what I meant by "no explicit statement".

There was no reply by Zen, or I? At what point should this statement have been made?

OK
Personally I have an idea on how this might have been done and it is being investigated. It is being discussed in the Dominions2 beta forum.

[johan osterman]

... It has of course been possible to read between the lines of various occurances in the forums, the patches and elsewhere to infer that there is a real problem, and that things have been done about it, but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

Im still not sure what the real problem you are refering to is, clams? or Norfleet? And how should it have been aknowledged If the problem you believe we were ignoring was Norfleet possibly cheating I don't see what you feel should have been handled differently. There was occasional instances when Norfleet triggered cheat prevention alarms. He also pulled his somewhat underhanded coup on Stormbinder. But these aren't reasons to issue an offical illwinter fatwah on him, in my mind. If you find these sorts of instances troubling or if you believed Norfleet was cheating the obvious ploy would have been avoid playing with Norfleet. If it isn't Norfleet's cheating you consider there being an official osprey behaviour on what is it, the clams? If so I still do not agree that they are overpowered, I also still do not see how it should have been handled differently. In fact the possibility of Norfleet cheating before only lends credence to our previous standpoints. And Norfleet apparantly very succesfully utilising a strategy is hardly cause for Nerfing it in the first place. Especially since other appeared to have problems reproducing it. So like an older thread suggested the problem with clamming was Norfleet, wether from extraordinary skill or cheating.

[Truper]

Im still not sure what the real problem you are refering to is, clams? or Norfleet? And how should it have been aknowledged If the problem you believe we were ignoring was Norfleet possibly cheating I don't see what you feel should have been handled differently.

The problem I'm referring to is cheating. I've never been involved in the clam debate on way or the other. Part of the problem with this whole discussion is that a bunch of seperate issues have become all tangled up together, and things have been further complicated by the personalities involved. The only thing I think could have been handled differently is that the fact that cheat alarms have been set off, and that improved cheat detection and the like were implemented for a *reason* could have been acknowledged before now.

There was occasional instances when Norfleet triggered cheat prevention alarms. He also pulled his somewhat underhanded coup on Stormbinder. But these aren't reasons to issue an offical illwinter fatwah on him, in my mind. If you find these sorts of instances troubling or if you believed Norfleet was cheating the obvious ploy would have been avoid playing with Norfleet.

Which is what I did. I actually think Illwinter does a great job responding to the community. I had no intention of becoming involved in this discussion at all, until I had one of my buttons pushed, and I now regret my "head in the sand" line, and apologize for using it.

If it isn't Norfleet's cheating you consider there being an official osprey behaviour on what is it, the clams? If so I still do not agree that they are overpowered, I also still do not see how it should have been handled differently. In fact the possibility of Norfleet cheating before only lends credence to our previous standpoints. And Norfleet apparantly very succesfully utilising a strategy is hardly cause for Nerfing it in the first place. Especially since other appeared to have problems reproducing it. So like an older thread suggested the problem with clamming was Norfleet, wether from extraordinary skill or cheating.

I've known for a long time, but been in no position to prove, that the clam strat was just a smokescreen for some sort of cheat or exploit.

Kudos to Illwinter for creating a game that has kept so many people so passionately involved for so long.

[johan osterman]

The problem I'm referring to is cheating. I've never been involved in the clam debate on way or the other. Part of the problem with this whole discussion is that a bunch of seperate issues have become all tangled up together, and things have been further complicated by the personalities involved. The only thing I think could have been handled differently is that the fact that cheat alarms have been set off, and that improved cheat detection and the like were implemented for a *reason* could have been acknowledged before now. ...

As far as I recall the cheat detection was not implemented to deal specifically with Norfleet, even if Norfleet from time to time would imply that Illwinter was out to get him. There was a little extra attention paid to Norfleet because of this and related issues, but the cheat alarms were not aimed at Norfleet, nor as far as I recall improved in response to Norfleet, they were just improved. The people that experienced the cheat warnings posted about it here, as did Norfleet himself on occasion. Norfleet claimed the cheat alarms had targeted him for offenses he hadn't commited. As far as I am concerned I do no think that there is much else that should have been done, I think it is up to the parties involved to impart any information about players being suspected for cheating. I at least certianly doesn't want here to be some sort of illwinter blacklist of players. In my opinion the only viable and workable option is for the player community to police itself in these matters.

[Gandalf Parker]

Johan Osterman:

As far as I recall the cheat detection was not implemented to deal specifically with Norfleet, even if Norfleet from time to time would imply that Illwinter was out to get him. There was a little extra attention paid to Norfleet because of this and related issues, but the cheat alarms were not aimed at Norfleet, nor as far as I recall improved in response to Norfleet, they were just improved. The people that experienced the cheat warnings posted about it here

Heehee. I think I would be willing to bet that I set off the cheat alarms more than anyone. My maps with handcreated gods for strange and powerful AIs became unplayable after the cheat-check went in. I was one of the big pushers to get an "off switch" to the chear detection.

Thats besides all of the purposeful tests and things I tried. And friends of mine from alt-hacker.org
Of course my results always went to illwinter.