PBW PvK Proportions Game #2

[Hippocrates]

Hey PvK,

I like the starting base numbers, but I feel that the higher end numbers you mentioned may be a bit high. Under 2.5 using a computer complex III, robotoid factory III, and system facilities III, the HW would cap out at about 95-100k mineral production and 45k research. These numbers werer large enough to make the homeworld the singlemost vuluable planet in any empire. By increasig these numbers to the potential described above, HW's would now eclipse any colony world, and would be quite capable of standing on their own.

I'm kind of grogy right now - can't think of a good arguement. However, I like proportions for its "epic" feel - slow construction, looooong research times, etc. A homeworld as powerful as you describe just seems a bit off to me.

Thanks,
-Hippo

[csebal]

Do not forget, that the colony worlds now also get a nice research / mining boost from cities / metropolises and the like.

So one arcology on a planet gives a 200% research rate bonus, effectively resulting in 3x the normal research that planet would give.

Well, taking a closer look at it, you will probably not have that many arcologies, because of the time it takes to build them, but the potential is there.

[Hippocrates]

Hey csebal,

That's partly the point - I liked the slower pace
I always felt that the stock game allowed or the generation of too many minerals and reserach points too quickly. I'm just pointing out that I hope the new values don't "speed things up" a manner drasticaly faster than 2.5 (I found the pacing there exquisite).

-Hippo

[csebal]

Well, i like the slower pace as well, but i dont see a point in having anything in the game that costs 200+ turns to build, even with the highest tech available.

I just mentioned, that there is a reasonable timeframe for constructing buildings, and they should all fit into that timeframe using the tech level players will most probably have by the time they are supposed to use the building.

See, if a metropolis takes 50 turns to build with top level construction facilities, then and i dont think many will build it, not to mention, that by the time you'll have that top level construction stuff, you could/should care about arcologies instead.

So lets make it clear, i dont want to make things build in a turn or a year, but i dont see a point in having my facility list cluttered with stuff, that takes so long, se5 comes out by the time it gets even near completion.

Thats my point.
Then again, there are two other aspects:
- First, i realize that im just one of the many Users of this mod, so my opinion weights little on the global scale.
- Then there is the 2nd Proportions game on PBW, which i would really like to begin ASAP, so it may not be the time to make ground breaking changes to the mod.

Lets just say, i keep throwing up ideas and comments like this hoping, that they help to make the mod better. Arguing about it can make the mod better as well, as it gives PvK more opinions to base his choices on.

Thats it on my side.

[Hippocrates]

Well, i like the slower pace as well, but i dont see a point in having anything in the game that costs 200+ turns to build, even with the highest tech available.

I just mentioned, that there is a reasonable timeframe for constructing buildings, and they should all fit into that timeframe using the tech level players will most probably have by the time they are supposed to use the building.

See, if a metropolis takes 50 turns to build with top level construction facilities, then and i dont think many will build it, not to mention, that by the time you'll have that top level construction stuff, you could/should care about arcologies instead.

So lets make it clear, i dont want to make things build in a turn or a year, but i dont see a point in having my facility list cluttered with stuff, that takes so long, se5 comes out by the time it gets even near completion.

Thats my point.
Then again, there are two other aspects:
- First, i realize that im just one of the many Users of this mod, so my opinion weights little on the global scale.
- Then there is the 2nd Proportions game on PBW, which i would really like to begin ASAP, so it may not be the time to make ground breaking changes to the mod.

Lets just say, i keep throwing up ideas and comments like this hoping, that they help to make the mod better. Arguing about it can make the mod better as well, as it gives PvK more opinions to base his choices on.

Thats it on my side.

Hey csebal,

You misunderstood - I agree with you on most of what you said. Rather, my comments were directed towards your earlier observation that Arcologies would offer 200% research bonuses, allowing for 3x normal research on a colony. I was simply commenting on how I liked the current proportions numbers for research and mineral production.

-Hippo

[PvK]

Hippocrates said:

...
That's partly the point - I liked the slower pace
I always felt that the stock game allowed or the generation of too many minerals and reserach points too quickly. I'm just pointing out that I hope the new values don't "speed things up" a manner drasticaly faster than 2.5 (I found the pacing there exquisite).
...

I like the 2.5 pacing too. I think the net effect will be similar. Remember it takes a LONG time to build an arcology. The new values do allow a lot more production and research on both colonies on the homeworld, however there are also several things that slow this down:

* Maximum trade income is halved. This used to often be a major part of an empire's income and research, and still will be, but it's about half as strong now.

* Most research costs are up about 50% or in some cases much more, and extend to higher levels, and/or were split into multiple tech areas.

* Many of the larger facilities and components now cost more, and especially more rads and orgs, and org and rad production on the homeworld is rather less than it was in 2.5, so they will become more valuable earlier on.

* With the halved org and rad construction rates, most of the cultural facilities can take about twice as long to build.

So some things have been multiplied up, while others have been divided down. Net result will be faster in some ways, slower in others, and with I think more range for different approaches.

PvK

[csebal]

Before reading trough the new Posts, here is it..

i was playing with the preview, then i just figured it out:

- research center II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 2 => 1
Computers 0 => 2
- research center III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 3 => 1
Computers 0 => 4

- research complex I
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 0 => 1
- research complex II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 1 => 3
- research complex III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 2 => 5

- research megaplex I
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
- research megaplex II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
Industry 2 => 3
Computers 2 => 4
- research megaplex III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
Industry 2 => 4
Computers 2 => 6

This is how i think the research requirements for research facilities could be changed.

As you can, see, all the research facilities are now research lvl1, all complexes lvl2, and all megaplexes are lvl3. The industry and computers research levels allow for the improved Versions of each... this would balance out research somewhat, making it look like actual advancement, instead of receiving both complex 3 and megaplex 3 once you've researched research 3.

Well, its kinda late here, so in case im not clear enough, just tell, and i'll try to explain it this morning.

[PvK]

csebal said:
...This is how i think the research requirements for research facilities could be changed.

As you can, see, all the research facilities are now research lvl1, all complexes lvl2, and all megaplexes are lvl3. The industry and computers research levels allow for the improved Versions of each... this would balance out research somewhat, making it look like actual advancement, instead of receiving both complex 3 and megaplex 3 once you've researched research 3.
...

The logic of the current system is that the complexes and megacomplexes are not _better_ Versions of the standard facilities. Instead, they are massive industrial Versions of the standard facilties. That's why the costs are as they are, and why the tech requirement is mainly Industry, rather than Research. Quality versus quantity. Sophistication versus brute force. The levels required are now a bit different (more difficult), but I think I will keep the concept. If I wanted linear increase I would just have Facility I-IX require Research 1-9 or Mining 1-9.

I was thinking though of perhaps removing the ability to upgrade facilities to complexes and megacomplexes. This would allow the numbering to remain I-III for each, would I think increase the value of each choice, and would slow down the ramping up of the homeworld to all megaplexes, and generally counterbalance the other changes I have made which tend to speed things up. You'd have to pay the full megaplex cost instead of building facility I's and then upgrading. And the weird side-effect of delaying Industry research to allow continued upgrades to Complexes before investing in megaplexes would be removed. Seems like a good idea - anyone object?

PvK

[Alneyan]

PvK said:
I was thinking though of perhaps removing the ability to upgrade facilities to complexes and megacomplexes. This would allow the numbering to remain I-III for each, would I think increase the value of each choice, and would slow down the ramping up of the homeworld to all megaplexes, and generally counterbalance the other changes I have made which tend to speed things up. You'd have to pay the full megaplex cost instead of building facility I's and then upgrading. And the weird side-effect of delaying Industry research to allow continued upgrades to Complexes before investing in megaplexes would be removed. Seems like a good idea - anyone object?

PvK

Well, you do not really need to delay your research even for upgrades. You would have to build a facility belonging to the same family (Research Center I for example), do the research for the upgrade of Research Complex I, launch the upgrade on one planet, save the upgrade in the queue, and go on with your research in Industry. If you only want Research Complexes rather than Megacomplexes, you will then fill the queue with this Research Complex upgrade. At least, I would believe it would work.

I would rather not be able to directly upgrade to Megacomplexes myself. Besides this, I do prefer the current principle behind homeworld facilities and cities over the previous one, but didn't have the time to delve into how they work yet.