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  #1  
Old June 9th, 2001, 08:16 AM

Hotfoot Hotfoot is offline
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

Hm...this sounds oddly familiar. I know a friend of mine has had some problems like this in the past. Copyright is a tricky issue, but when it comes down to amature artists, I can definately sympathize with the need for asking and giving credit where credit is due. Most people who are amateurs want to possibly become professionals, and it's rather difficult to achieve when one's art is taken on the net and shown without any credit given.

(ed. note: while I was writing this, I was in the middle of an ICQ conversation with a friend of mine, who offered some insights into this situation to me)

When I first read this thread, I thought that it sounded somewhat familiar, and in fact, upon further checking, it's actually more familiar than I originally thought. I happen to know the artist in question, and she's had a heck of a time with people taking her art and not giving her proper credit (or any credit in some cases: there's beed a few times when people tried to pass it off as their own).

I love her art, and I sincerly hope she continues to share it with people, as do the rest of her friends, and the best way to do that is to give her a reason to keep producing it. Right now, the best way to do that is give credit where credit is due.

As for the paranoid ramblings, well, yes, if a company wanted to, they could keep people from publishing shipsets and images if it kept them from earning money on the subject of the shipsets and images or if they had a similar game and the mods for SEIV cut into their own sales (like say Lucasarts were to revive Rebellion, they /might/ decide to come down on the Star Wars shipsets).

But in any case, just because it's on the internet doesn't mean that it's free. And when it comes to independent (or amateut) creators of anything, you always want to give them a reason to continue making stuff if you like it. It's like not just handing out the *.exe for SEIV or WAREZing it, because we want to see more.

I'm not certain, but I think that if you asked her and told her your intentions, you might get permission to use her picture, but that's really up to her, not me. In any situation, I look forward to seeing more shipsets to download.

-Hotfoot
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Old June 9th, 2001, 08:29 AM

Saxon Saxon is offline
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

Deathstalker,

What do you think about posting her website address here? It sounds like she has great work that is in a style a lot of us would like to see. If she is getting any cash from visits to her website, should would probably appreciate the extra hits and even if not, she would probably like more publicity and appreciation for her work. Doing a little advertising for her might help sooth any upset about improper use of the work.
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Old June 9th, 2001, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

quote:
Originally posted by Deathstalker:
....it is the central core of my race.(besides the fact that the picture ROCKS!, and brings a much needed female element to SE4).


What about an Amazon race? Too bad my graphic skill and equipment are zero.

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Old June 9th, 2001, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

I can see this is going to be a hot topic for a while.

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Old June 9th, 2001, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

This thread made me curious about this artist so I downloaded the Y'Gathian Free States shipset to see the race portrait. Very nice indeed. I'd like to know who the artist is so I can check out more of her work.
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Old June 9th, 2001, 06:41 PM

Hotfoot Hotfoot is offline
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

She has her main Gallery at Elfwood, which is a site that hosts art for free for amateur artists. The main site is www.elfwood.com and has thousands of wonderfully talented artists and writers hosted there.

Her section in particular is http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/b/e/bergkvist/

Enjoy!

-Hotfoot
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Old June 9th, 2001, 07:40 PM

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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

Well. . . hmm. I feel like I should talk about this as an artist, because, quite frankly, this topic is rather near and dear to me.

Firstly, just so it's clear- this is not intended as a flame of any sort. Deathstalker did the right thing, once he discovered that someone was unhappy with the use of their work.

At the same time, this post contains some helpful hints on using an artist's work, and some pretty harsh ranting about the current state of things, so be aware that I have a strong opinion about this and it doesn't match most of the posters'.

I'm a semi-professional artist who's worked on a number of freeware games over the Last 4 years- Mythos and The Xenology Crisis being the best examples. I've never gotten paid a dime for any of my game work, but I've enjoyed it, and I've been sharpening my skills in the process, so it's been a fair trade.

I'm now at a point in my skills where I can make professional-quality works in 3D, and well. . . I don't put stuff on the Net unless I expect it to get stolen. That's right. . . not "borrowed", "used as fan art" or other phrases. . . it's theft. If I create it, and you like it- buy it! Or view it on a website I designed to get hits, so that I get paid. . . anything else is theft, imho.

But the Internet is no respecter of my rights. If I mainly worked in physical mediums, such as painting or sculpture. . . well, people can forge my works, sure. . . but I'm not famous, and nobody will ever bother. But on the Internet, it's easy to steal the work, and very difficult to track down thieves. After all, they're usually kids who threw up a Tripod site, and they're long gone before I find out that my work's being used elsewhere, so I'm screwed.

Art is the single most commonly-stolen item on the Internet. As a result, I and other artists like me have had to go and dig up crusty legal material specifying the license under which we're distributing our work, because otherwise we're barely covered under copyright law- since we didn't give due notice, the law assumes we don't care about our rights to have our works disseminated in the manner in which we choose. So people have to hit "I agree" before they can access our sites, or. . . we just have to assume that it's going bye-bye, and hope that this will bring more people to our sites. That's a totally BS way of doing things.

As a result of all of the above, many artists have taken their sites down, because the "free publicity" is worthless, if no-one ever buys your current works or commissions new ones. It's a waste of bandwidth, time and energy, not to mention the cost, if it's a privately-owned site.

Big companies can afford the effort to track down thieves, and gently remind them that they aren't allowed to steal from their expensive talent pool. I hate to put it this way, but a "cease and desist" order from a lawyer is a very gentle way of shutting you down. They can do a *lot* worse, and will if they have to, although usually your ISP will shut you down asap if they even ask.

But for those of us who aren't working for corporations. . . well, we're stuck, aren't we? We don't want to put our art on the Web, because it will get stolen. On the other hand, if we *don't* put it up, nobody knows we're artists, and we'll have to troll around for clients or teams to work with. Having been down this road with game teams multiple times, I've had different results depending on the people involved. I turned down a recent project offer, for example, because the 17-year-old "project coodinator" didn't understand that while the team can commision my work, and I will work for free on small stuff, any major project requires very strict controls on who gets to use my work, and how. He simply couldn't get it through his skull that he would have to have someone over the age of 18 sign an actual physical document and send it back to my home gee, how. . . ancient! How quaint! Someone won't work without knowing their content won't get used for other projects that are commercial in nature. . . <lol>

Anyhow, I'm done ranting now. . . here are my hints for dealing with all of the semi-pro folks out there:

1. Always find out who created what you're going to use. Ignorance is not an excuse, under the law. And you should be crediting the artist or owners of that art always in derivative work, if you're going to make the "free publicity" argument work. Always include the trademark or trade name of whatever you're using, as well, and make it clear that the original conception was not your idea.

2. Always ask before you use someone's work, even if the topic is derivative. If you're making a "fan" work, you should ask permission of the legal owners of the material before building anything. "Fan" stuff falls into a very big gray area. . . but basically unless you're distributing it using your own bandwidth, and have no banner ads or other revenue-generating material, you are violating the law's rather vague protection for derivative works. In other words, most folks do not qualify to produce fan works. Making, for example, a Marvel game, and then distributing it via iDrive would be illegal.

3. If it's a semi-pro artist, work out a deal. People like me will often work with you for free, if we trust you. We'll improve the original art, for example, or change it around to suit your needs. In order to build that trust, express your willingness to enter into formal legal agreements(i.e., physical signed documents) that protect the artist from having their work used improperly. Make sure that the artist understands how you intend to use the work- if you're going to take an illustration of a face, for example, and have it associated with evil actions, the artist may object to its use. Be prepared to work with the artist, and don't simply regard them as a tool you need to complete your game idea.

4. Lastly, If in doubt, don't use it. If you have any doubts as to who produced a piece of art, and in what context, don't use it unless you can be sure that it was released under some sort of agreement. "Free" does NOT mean that the artist has said, "gee, do whatever you want with this". The artist, when asked, is probably going to say, "You can use my art on your website, but a game is probably not an acceptable use." Or they may say, "Cool! A game! Just make sure I'm given credit, ok?" If you don't *know*, and you do it anyway, don't be surprised if you get bit, like Deathstalker was :P


[This message has been edited by Argh (edited 09 June 2001).]
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