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August 25th, 2004, 10:04 PM
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Re: Dammit
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
and you, arryn, have obviously never played warcraft III
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Really? Strange, since I do have the game installed on my system (well, it actually belongs to a friend of my BF's), and played it through Act 1 Chapter 6 before getting annoyed with it. Obviously, you should be a bit more careful about the ASSumptions you make and whom to.
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August 26th, 2004, 01:19 AM
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First Lieutenant
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Re: Dammit
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Arryn said:
Really? Strange, since I do have the game installed on my system
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ive noticed that fans of underated strategy games that havent recieved the popularity they deserve, such as dominions II, have a tendency to diss on the popular games, refusing to admit that they, too, are good
dont mind me... just a pet peeve i guess.
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August 26th, 2004, 06:29 AM
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Re: Dammit
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
ive noticed that fans of underated strategy games that havent recieved the popularity they deserve, such as dominions II
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Dom 2 is not "underated". It received glowing reviews from both CG and CGW magazines (which was what prompted me to check out the demo). The only thing "underated" about Dom 2 is the lack of appreciation the devs get for a game they basically did/do in their spare time. As for popularity, TBS strategy games in general do not appeal to the "me now" generation of console twitch gamers, which is fine by me as I really don't care much for the opinions of kids who hadn't even been born yet when U.S. soldiers were coming home in body bags from a "police action" called Vietnam.
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
have a tendency to diss on the popular games, refusing to admit that they, too, are good
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There are hordes of games that are popular and are still crap. Deus Ex:IW is a perfect example. Scratch beneath the pretty graphics of Doom 3 and what do you find? A crappy game. Popularity has nothing to do with quality. Though quality sometimes helps spur popularity.
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
dont mind me...
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Is that an invitation to ignore you?
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August 26th, 2004, 06:46 AM
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Sergeant
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Re: Dammit
Quote:
Arryn said:
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
ive noticed that fans of underated strategy games that havent recieved the popularity they deserve, such as dominions II
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Dom 2 is not "underated". It received glowing reviews from both CG and CGW magazines (which was what prompted me to check out the demo). The only thing "underated" about Dom 2 is the lack of appreciation the devs get for a game they basically did/do in their spare time.
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Woah - while not wishing to assist you in hijacking this thread, I can't help but ask, what lack of appreciation? I think Dom2 is the most awesome game I've ever played, the only worthy successor to MoM, right up there with Civ1 and Elite etc. etc. etc., and I'm fairly sure thousands of other people do too, judging by this board alone.
The fact that people gripe about bugs or features they don't like does not, I hope, count as failing to appreciate IW's achievement. If you believe in the power of word of mouth (look at GalCiv), they're not underrated at all. Then there's the glowing reviews. Is there some sort of medal or award they missed out on??
Quote:
Arryn said:
Quote:
The_Tauren13 said:
have a tendency to diss on the popular games, refusing to admit that they, too, are good
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There are hordes of games that are popular and are still crap. Deus Ex:IW is a perfect example. Scratch beneath the pretty graphics of Doom 3 and what do you find? A crappy game. Popularity has nothing to do with quality. Though quality sometimes helps spur popularity.
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Er, yeah. There are also some hugely popular games that are very good indeed. This argument isn't getting either of you anywhere.
CC
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August 26th, 2004, 07:02 AM
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Re: Dammit
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magnate said:
Er, yeah. There are also some hugely popular games that are very good indeed.
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Such as KoTOR.
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magnate said:
This argument isn't getting either of you anywhere.
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Indeed. Since when did that ever stop anyone? 
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August 26th, 2004, 07:08 AM
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Major
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Re: Dammit
Quote:
Arryn said:
Such as KoTOR.
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Yeah, that was one cool game. Hear about "Jade Empire" yet?
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August 26th, 2004, 07:52 AM
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Re: Dammit
Quote:
deccan said:
Yeah, that was one cool game. Hear about "Jade Empire" yet?
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Yes. I'm a big fan of BioWare. However, their upcoming game I'm most excited about is ... KoTOR 2. But I have no doubt that I'll be getting JE sometime next year. My favorite game genre is RPGs. I'm anxiously waiting on Call of C. (due out next week) and Vampire:Bloodlines (in about 2 months).
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August 26th, 2004, 07:20 AM
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Re: Dammit
Someone lost in nested quotes said
"The only thing "underated" about Dom 2 is the lack of
appreciation the devs get for a game they basically did/do in their spare time."
The fact that it was done in their spare time does not make it a better game. Neither does it make the horrible faults (OK the message system) go away. It does make me more ready to accept the problems but only because the core game is so very good.
Plus I agree it is tiring that so many people seem to reject things on the grounds that they are popular. I am sure that here it is mostly due to differing tastes not prejudice though.
Whats KoTOR? Oh knights of the old republic - that was good but not great in the BGII way.
Pickles
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August 26th, 2004, 01:59 AM
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Re: Dammit
Quote:
Arryn said:
Strange, since I do have the game installed on my system (well, it actually belongs to a friend of my BF's), and played it through Act 1 Chapter 6 before getting annoyed with it. Obviously, you should be a bit more careful about the ASSumptions you make and whom to.
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Sounds to me like you didn't really play Warcraft 3 if you never went to MP. War 3 MP is extremely good, even though SP ain't all that great. Sounds like it was a GOOD ASSumption after all.
As for the basic premise of this post, the routing thing is very counter-intuitive. It is one of the hard lessons to learn when trying to make an SC and moving onto MP from SP. For example, the guy who summons the free imps is a lousy SC because he routes when the imps die.
This clearly is not a good situation. I stand by my earlier comments. The presence of troops OUGHT to decrease the chances of routing, not increase it. Game play balance, role playing, whatever. It is still very counter-intuitive and fundamentally wrong.
This could be fixed with some fairly easy changes:
1. A commander should not automatically rout when all the troops are gone. It should definitely increase the chance of routing, though, in order to protect the vulnerable mages. Maybe a single hit in the presence of fatigue or even just fatigue itself (like maybe 50%) should be enough to cause the rout of a commander without an army. This would help protect the mages in a losing battle.
2. A commander without troops should rout far easier than one who still has troops. The commander without troops should be the exact same chance of routing as in point 1 above. Thus the guy who brings an army with his commander is not punished for doing that, like it is now. He would therefore be more likely to win such a battle against a lone SC, even with mini-SCs like properly outfitted national commanders, as long as he has a support army. THIS would be far more intuitive than the current system.
3. When support troops start dying, the chances of a commander to rout should slowly rise. It ought to be the exact same kind of check that a squad has to determine when to rout. After all, the commander is the leader of the army and should never act independant of his troops. He will also stay on the battlefield much longer simply because he starts with higher morale than most living troops do.
Someone earlier in this thread said that concrete suggestions should be proposed for consideration by the devs instead of whining. Nuf said.
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August 26th, 2004, 02:16 AM
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Second Lieutenant
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Re: Dammit
There is no one-size-fits-all solution that does the "right thing" for both combat mages and SCs. No matter what spin you put on it, either your mages won't rout soon enough or your SCs will rout too soon.
The current system is bad only for a group of mini-SCs, who could tolerate the loss of a couple of their members, and for regular SCs with mage backup. Even in that case, it's only a problem if the mage dies. If the SC dies, you still want the mage(s) to rout.
I'm relatively satisfied with the way it is. SCs and mages are strong enough already. Sure there are cases where it is a nuisance, but balance-wise, it works out best. But if you start dinking around with it, everything you try will be in the end worse.
The only solution would be to allow the player to specify, for each commander, whether for him to rout on army loss or not. Or, to specify this as part of the unit definition. (This would certainly fix the Moloch, who is the only unit who really needs this sort of adjustment).
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