Dammit

[Boron]

Arryn said:

You, too, are making bad assumptions. It is perfectly valid to judge a game based on its SP value, alone. The majority of computer game players play only in SP. You may not like to admit it, but MP players are a minority, albeit a large and disproportionately vocal one. There are plenty of games that are good in SP and great in MP (such as Diablo 2, Call of Duty, Dom 2, just to name three) that I needn't waste time with those that suck in SP and *might* be better than sucky in MP.

warcraft 3 was the biggest disappointment i ever had with a game .
i were a REALLY HUGE fan of blizzard until warcraft 3.
i loved starcraft and diablo 2 .
but warcraft is not a strategygame but a tactical game which is quite brainless .
the SP campaign is actually somewhat entertaining but warcraft 3 multiplay is so stuid + brainless .

your 90 population limit + the heros ruin the game completely .
resourcemanagement is totally unimportant you just need to make 1-2 heros + 10 of the cheapest troops and then kill all monsters for gold + levels and kill the enemy .

you have a real lack of strategies there . just RUSH,RUSH,RUSH .

with 90 population you never have more than about 20-30 soldiers .
and normally you only go to 70 population because the resourcemalus 70% to 40% is not worth the 20 extra population .

so the game is just based around rush + your hero(s) .

a big step backwards compared to starcraft .
furthermore it is completely baffling to me that even in warcraft 3 you can't group more than 12 units in one group ( you don't need it there though ) .

in starcraft every unit had its use and the 200 supply limit was ok . there you could e.g. make a zealots rush , or tech to templers / air force etc.
you could either focus on micro or on macro .
both strats were viable .

in warcraft 3 it is reduced to hero micro .

ok enough complaining about warcraft 3

in dominions the rout system as it is is perfect.

otherwise i would not build any armies at ALL and just mages + scs .
would be very boring .
this way i have to decide either using 1 sc or using an army + mages . each kind of army has its advantages and disadvantages .

if commanders wouldn't autorout there would really be for 90% of the nations NO need for any armies anymore .

[Arryn]

Boron said:
warcraft 3 was the biggest disappointment i ever had with a game.

That dubious honor, for me, is reserved for MOO3. MOO3 gets [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

Other notable lemon awards for recent, disappointing, highly-hyped games go to:

Beyond Divinity - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
Chrome - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
Lionheart - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
JA2:Wildfire - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

Deus Ex: IW - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
Victoria - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

But WC3 does earn [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

[Boron]

Arryn said:
JA2:Wildfire - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
Victoria - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

oh what is ja2 : wildfire ?
i loved basic jagged alliance 2 and i even bought 1 expansion disk for it which was not too good but i don't remember the name .

what do you not like with victoria ?
i like paradox games but since i discovered dominions they now seem so inferior

i personally like victoria basically and think it is good but the revolution system is very unpleasant there and stopped me from playing it more .
conquering china is a nightmare
each day lots of revolutions for 10 or 20 years until nationalism is gone
1 division in each province is enough to kill all rebels but with the size of china that are 200+ divisions which are not so easy to achieve in victoria .

eu 2 is a really nice game but too simple and gets boring once you have 100+ provinces .

hoi is great but after researching all techs it becomes boring too and with the stupid convoy / supply system world conquest is hard work there not really enjoyable too .
it is easy but hard / unpleasant work

victoria has enough complexity but the revolution system is just stupid there with daily revolutions .


i am really looking forward to hoi 2 though because i hope it combines all strength of the paradox games .
a victoria without revolutions but dissent like in hoi i would really enjoy

hoi 2 seems to become a good combo of hoi + victoria

[Boron]

p.s.

arryn how long did you play eu 2 , hoi , victoria ?
have you ever finished a wc in any of those 3 ?

i was always bored before i reached that . in hoi i stopped as germany after russia + britain were dead and the usa had no airforce left and was ripe to invasion .
in eu 2 i always stopped after controlling about 150 provinces ( about 2/3 of europe ) because i saw no further challenge .

victoria i haven't played so much because shortly after getting victoria i discovered dominons

[Arryn]

Boron said:
arryn how long did you play eu 2 , hoi , victoria ?
have you ever finished a wc in any of those 3 ?

No. I haven't that much patience for something that's inevitable.

Boron said:
i was always bored before i reached that . in hoi i stopped as germany after russia + britain were dead and the usa had no airforce left and was ripe to invasion .
in eu 2 i always stopped after controlling about 150 provinces ( about 2/3 of europe ) because i saw no further challenge .

In HoI, about the same point. In EU2, once I've knocked out 2 of the 3 major powers (Spain, France, and Britain) the outcome isn't in doubt and it's only a matter of time. I played EU2 just to read the passing event Messages. The game itself presented no strategic challenge in SP. I stopped playing the game because Paradox never fixed some rather glaring bugs (bugs other than the lame AI).

Boron said:
victoria i haven't played so much because shortly after getting victoria i discovered dominons

I, too, discovered Dom 2 shortly after getting Vicky. Dom 2 saved me from wasting countless hours trying to work around Vicky's problems.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

I, too, discovered Dom 2 shortly after getting Vicky. Dom 2 saved me from wasting countless hours trying to work around Vicky's problems.

a question :
did you play all paradox games with the newest patches ?

they get more challenging this way.
i am not sure but i think you haven't perhaps .

in eu 1.08 you earn much less money and inflation is harder to combat . diplo sliders are much better too .
so it becomes a bit more challenging .

hoi in 1.06 the greatly improved the ai .
russia has there normally about 300 divisions in 1939/40 so the early victory with germany is not so easy anymore .
and the ai lands more than 1-2 units on beachheads .

it is still from good but a big improvement to all patches before .


finally curious about vicky :
with 1.03b the latest patch i played it it was quite good most bugs were gone .

i don't really get your point about the manual .
for victoria fans made wickyvicky or called similiar it is like the manual addenda from liga .
and the discussion on victoria board was good too so with victoria manual it is exactly the same like with the dominions manual it is ok but leaves many questions open .

the ai in victoria is probably the worst though still

what i hate with all paradox games that they only force you indirect to not grow too big too soon .
not the ai stops you but in eu 2 revolutions from different religions + really huge stability costs .
in vicky the same but more severe .


the real problem though is that they ALL lack depths :
everybody has the same armies when he researches all techs .
so it is simply getting a bigger army + using the right troops but thats really easy since there are only about 10-15 different types .

unfortunately you can reduce it to 1-2 types :
in hoi the light 12 speed tanks for encirclement + marines with artillery brigade .
in vicky guards , tanks/artillery for special purposes .

all disappointing [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

the only game which comes close here to dominions 2 is master of orion 2 (perhaps space empires is similiar i haven't played it though because iirc it is realtime and i prefer turn based )

[Arryn]

Boron said:
did you play all paradox games with the newest patches ?

Yes, I have.

Boron said:
in eu 1.08 you earn much less money and inflation is harder to combat . diplo sliders are much better too .
so it becomes a bit more challenging .

Those are peripheral issues to other things that are fundamentally wrong with the game, the worst being the AI.

Boron said:
hoi in 1.06 the greatly improved the ai .

I play HoI with 1.06c and CORE 0.84. CORE makes the game much more realistic and challenging, yet it still falls far short of being truly challenging in SP. Unlike Dom 2.

Boron said:
finally curious about vicky :
with 1.03b the latest patch i played it it was quite good most bugs were gone .

My BF disagrees, and he still plays the game (unlike me).

Boron said:
what i hate with all paradox games that they only force you indirect to not grow too big too soon .
not the ai stops you but in eu 2 revolutions from different religions + really huge stability costs .
in vicky the same but more severe .

There are some really ugly and ridiculously unrealistic/ahistorical things that happen in Vicky after the turn of the century if you're deemed by the AI(s) as a "threat".

IMO, Paradox is very good at conceptualizing / designing games, but not very good at implementing them. Their biggest shortcoming is a marked lack of usability testing, which would quickly reveal the numerous UI flaws in their games. They also desperately need someone with experience in AI (preferably neural-net AI). Of course, people with experience in AI are in severely short supply in the entire gaming industry. It's just that the games that most need good AI (ie: strategy games) are often the ones with the worst AIs. Probably has something to do with the genre's popularity and typical budgets.

Boron said:
the only game which comes close here to dominions 2 is master of orion 2 (perhaps space empires is similiar i haven't played it though because iirc it is realtime and i prefer turn based )

SE4 is TB. So is GalCiv. You should try both.

The Last RT grand strategy game I played (prior to EU/EU2/HoI/Vicky) was Star Wars Rebellion. A game that should have been TB. RT brought nothing good to the game. Especially since the morons who made the game didn't allow for orders while the game was paused.

[Arryn]

Boron said:
oh what is ja2 : wildfire ?
i loved basic jagged alliance 2 and i even bought 1 expansion disk for it which was not too good but i don't remember the name .

An expansion pack for $20, which is essentially a buggy-as-hell and unsupported-by-anyone mod. You'd do much better, by far, to download the excellent mod Urban Chaos from this site .

Boron said:
what do you not like with victoria ?

The list is long. It begins with the massive lack of documentation for a game that is very complex (much more complex than HoI) and not at all intuitive. It continues with the enormous number of major bugs the game continues to have. And it ends with the fact that underneath it all is the lame Paradox AI which is in all the EU-engined games and that cripples SP play in EU2, HoI, and Victoria. I've condensed my gripes into 3 brief sentences, but the depth of my dislike for the game is much more detailed and lengthy. This isn't the forum for airing such, so I'm trying to spare disinterested readers a long rant on it.

Boron said:
hoi is great but after researching all techs it becomes boring too

It's too easy as a human to conquer the world in HoI SP, even with pathetically small nations, nevermind military/economic powerhouses like Germany. As Germany, I have won "WW2" by the end of 1939, by the end of 1940 I have an empire that would have been the envy of Imperial Rome or Alexander, and by the end of 1941 there is nothing to stop me from total world conquest long before the game's deadline (or anyone else's possible development of atomic weapons, not that even atomic bombs could stop me). The AI is just not even remotely up to the task of handling a game this complex. But to Paradox's credit, they've at least exposed the AI to user modification, which has turned a game that I otherwise would have shelved 2 years ago into something that still resides on my HDD. I wish that IW would do likewise and open up the Dom 2 AI to user modification.

[The_Tauren13]

Arryn said:
I wish that IW would do likewise and open up the Dom 2 AI to user modification.

that would actually be really cool. i mean, that way you can always have a semi-balanced game vs the AI by modding it to be similar to your skill level

[Arryn]

The_Tauren13 said:
that would actually be really cool. i mean, that way you can always have a semi-balanced game vs the AI by modding it to be similar to your skill level

I hadn't considered that particular application. Not a bad idea at all.

What I had in mind is such things that people complain about such as AI spellcasting behavior, AI troop-building preferences, that units commanded to attack the enemy's rear actually attack the rear (and not the rear of the closest unit), etc. etc.

Oh, and we could throw routing behavior into the pot while we're at it. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon24.gif[/img]