Poll: morale and routing

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
have you ever played age of wonders 2 shadow magic cainehill ?

Trust me, I've played more computer games than you can imagine under heaven and hell. Yes, I've played AoW, AoW2, AoW2SM. The first one was the best, SM was seriously flawed right down to the campaign system. Worst of all, like the Disciples series of games, units had to _kill_ an opponent to really gain experience, making you play stupid arse games (in the game) to get the good units / heroes to get the kills. In this, it was rather like several of the Final Fantasy video games, where even if you could kill a group of enemies right away, you had to dick around and swap in each character if you wanted them to advance / get experience.

i played it seriously for about 1/2 year and enjoyed it .
the only problem is that you have only about 200 units and 200 spells and know all too quick .
but it was really well balanced .

No it wasn't. Certain races and heroes were definately better than the others. The campaign mode helped to disguise this by _forcing_ you to use certain races.

You point out that you only played it for 1/2 a year, because you know it all too quick.

So - why do you want to dumb down Dominions2? Yes, it gets frustrating seeing your carefully crafted army get toasted by an SC or a couple of mages. So _LEARN_ from it. I'd like to think that at this point I'm a solid intermediate Dom2 player; there's still a lot of things I _know_ I don't do well enough, and personally, I like that.

My SCs don't match up well against the really good players yet - I don't forge enough items. Oh well - solution, forge more. I didn't scout enough - solution, build more scouts. I didn't use summoned troops well enough - solved.

Proper use of summoned troops, of SCs, of powerful spells (not counting Wish (half-joke) , is a huge part of being a good Dominions2 player. I've been playing _very_ steadily for over half a year, and there's still a lot to learn and improve on.

So, again - why do you want to cripple the parts of the game that give it such a long lifespan?

i just wonder why you are so reluctant against small changes cainehill where the majority agrees that they would strengthen the dominion experience even more .
esben agreed to me , panther agreed , cohen will agree .

Okay. Now I'm going to give voice to my inner feelings based on this. Is your nickname "Boron the Moron" by any chance?

My reason for this is: "The majority agrees"???? You gave three names - Tauren is certainly a 4th. This is a bleeding majority?

Second - you're an idiot if you think that what you, Tauren, and even Panther (no moron there) propose are "small changes". You obviously aren't a programmer, aren't a grognard, aren't an analyst or anything close. "Small" changes have big ripples, especially in a game with such widely varying factions as Dom2 has. And what y'all propose aren't small changes.

You propose having reduced upkeep for national troops. Why? I've served in my nations military. They don't get paid any _less_ as the years go on. Why do you think knights would take 1/4 salary as they got better at their trade?

And you want _upkeep_ for all summoned troops? Where in Dog's name is this justified? If I summon ... undead, I slit a throat, and I have zombies. Why would they cost upkeep? If I conjure sea monkeys, I enticed them with the gems I offered in the casting. Demons, I offer some souls up front - I don't offer them "20 souls, plus 5 souls a month amortized and averaged over the per diem cost per soul in Ulm."

the aow / MoM approach here is just more righteous .

And you're on bad drugs. MoM's approach was totally different, as was AoW's. They have different game systems, different mechanics. If you want a MoM style game that's better - write it. Two amateurs (programming wise) did a damn fine job with Dominions and Dominions 2. Why can't you do the same? Especially since "the majority" agrees with you.

( Note : I just spent 3 hours on the phone before I completed this message, so it might not have the overall coherency I usually prefer. Then again, I'm not debating coherent people. )

[Stossel]

Is your nickname "Boron the Moron" by any chance?

Cainehill said:
( Note : I just spent 3 hours on the phone before I completed this message, so it might not have the overall coherency I usually prefer. Then again, I'm not debating coherent people. )

Ad Hominem never helps your case.

So - why do you want to dumb down Dominions2? Yes, it gets frustrating seeing your carefully crafted army get toasted by an SC or a couple of mages. So _LEARN_ from it. I'd like to think that at this point I'm a solid intermediate Dom2 player; there's still a lot of things I _know_ I don't do well enough, and personally, I like that.

My SCs don't match up well against the really good players yet - I don't forge enough items. Oh well - solution, forge more. I didn't scout enough - solution, build more scouts. I didn't use summoned troops well enough - solved.

Proper use of summoned troops, of SCs, of powerful spells (not counting Wish (half-joke) , is a huge part of being a good Dominions2 player. I've been playing _very_ steadily for over half a year, and there's still a lot to learn and improve on.

A proper RTS analogy for this idea would be, in order to stop the rush, rush yourself. This attitude however devolves the game into nothing but rushing, and is a big sign of a design flaw.

He's not attempting to "dumb down" the game, his intention is to make the game a richer experience by not making national units completely obsolete in the late game.

It just seems to me there's something wrong with how things are working. However, like many people have already pointed out, the game setup migh have a huge part to do with it. Easy research, lots of magic sites, over-sized maps for how many people are playing, etc. contribute to an SC/mage-heavy type of setup.

Even so, I'd like to see research and gems, items, etc. be able to benefit troops as well. Create a series of flag standards that would be forgeable and give bonuses to the units under the bearers command. Strengthen troop-bonusing spells, or give bonuses to the national troops when they get buffed. These troops are after all your loyal subjects. Trolls and Ice devils are all fine and dandy, but they aren't building your temples and worshipping you day to day.

[deccan]

Whoa, a flame-fest. This kind of reminds me of the debate I ran across on the White Wolf forums. Basically there was one group going: werewolves are slice 'em and dice 'em killing machines, vampires are pale-skinned effetes who drink blood, an average werewolf should kill an average vampire in, like, two seconds tops.

Then the other group was going: no, no, no vampires are "IMMORTAL LORDS OF THE NIGHT" and werewolves are mortals who can shapeshift into wolves, werewolves should be pet *****es for vampires etc.

What was amusing of course is that neither vampires nor werewolves exist in reality, everything lies in how the individual wants to conceive them as being.

In the same way, there's no universal, end all, be all, fantasy strategy game. Inevitably, different players will conceive of what is for them the ultimate fantasy strategy game in different ways.

On the one side, we have Graeme Dice and Cainehill whose idea of fantasy is fantastic, high fantasy, the stuff of legends, like Middle Earth in the First Age, when there were lots of dragons and balrogs about, when Morgorth walked the earth in physical form, when the Ents were awake and the power of gods like Tom Bombadil were in full bloom, and mortal humans could do no more than stare at them in open-mouthed awe.

On the other side, we have people like Panther and FM_Surrigon whose idea of fantasy is a more subdued, subtle kind, where ordinary joes can and do play a part in the great scheme of things. Sort of like Middle Earth in the Third or Fourth Ages. This is the age of mortals, where force of arms determine the fate of the world. Magic is rare but when found, always prized. I have to say that I tend to lean towards this camp.

But that doesn't mean that we can't agree to disagree. This is simply a matter of taste. I agree that at this point Dom leans heavily in the direction of high fantasy and it may well be that this is what the developers prefer themselves.

But surely, we of the latter camp can make suggestions and say what kind of game we'd like to have. After all, not everyone has the time, inclination, dedication or talent to make a game as good as Dom2.

[atul]

deccan said:
On the one side, we have Graeme Dice and Cainehill whose idea of fantasy is fantastic, high fantasy, the stuff of legends, like Middle Earth in the First Age,...[snip]

On the other side, we have people like Panther and FM_Surrigon whose idea of fantasy is a more subdued, subtle kind, where ordinary joes can and do play a part in the great scheme of things. Sort of like Middle Earth in the Third or Fourth Ages.

And since thinking along only one axis is so boring, there are as many interpretations as there are players. I for one like the feeling of advancement in Dominions. I mean, sure, the game starts with these pretenders thinking too much of themselves leading few faithfuls into battle, relying on the strength of their followers. But as the war goes on, more and more [censored] hits the fan and the pretenders in their pride become more and more detached from the real world. Men who first fought with their kind are first sided with some monsters, later to notice that their God has very little use for common rabble bar taxing them to death. A bit like WW2, starting with Polish cavalry and ending with the two bombs.

And yeah, big spells are just cool, special thanks to IW for including them in the game. Can't think of too many games that have anything comparable.

And in respect to items to boost normal troops. I'd say there's a very good way to make normal troops useful in late game: while alone hoplites are no match for say, Mechanical Men, try casting Army of Lead, Mass Regeneration, Weapons of Sharpness and Mist Warriors and watch 'em sweep the floor. Of course there's little reason to recruit troops just to have them sit in the garrisons, but garrison duty isn't the thing to have soldiers do anyway.

[deccan]

FM_Surrigon said:
Ad Hominem never helps your case.

I second that. Cainehill's remarks were totally uncalled for.

FM_Surrigon said:
Even so, I'd like to see research and gems, items, etc. be able to benefit troops as well. Create a series of flag standards that would be forgeable and give bonuses to the units under the bearers command. Strengthen troop-bonusing spells, or give bonuses to the national troops when they get buffed.

Great ideas. I miss the MoM mechanic of enchanting the equipment of ordinary troops, or having troops builts in places with mithril deposits have better weapons / armor.

However, I agree that changes of this magnitude will be impossible in Dom2. These are all things for a future Version of the game or some other game entirely.

[Thufir]

deccan said:

I second that. Cainehill's remarks were totally uncalled for.

I third that. This forum is the worse for such immaturity.

On the subject at hand, I think Esben has made a number of excellent (if provocative) suggestions in this thread. The two that I like the most I think are impractical to implement in Dom2, but well worth consideration in Dom3. Those being:

1) Increase the penalty for being surrounded.
2) Add maintenance cost for summons. I'd also like to see a maintenance cost for Ritual spells with continuing affects.


Both of these changes would make for an underlying mechanic that "feels" more realistic. I believe that while both really require a ground up rewrite for balance to be achieved (especially #2), I think that both of these changes would provide a basis that is cleaner, and if anything easier to balance. While Johan's comments are undoubtedly correct if this change is made to the current system, there's no reason why magic maintenance cost can't be incorporated without unduly favoring SCs or items, if this is considered from the ground up.

So, that said, I don't think either of these changes are a good idea for Dom2. Dom2 as it stands is a wonderful game. Otherwise we wouldn't all be spending such time and energy in this forum. And, to me, the best thing about Dom2 is it's extraordinary richness and complexity, measured against the fact that despite all that complexity, it is still a very well balanced game. Maintaining balance in a game as complex as Dom2 is no easy feat, and it goes to the credit of the designers/devs for Dom2 and no doubt to the Dominions community as well. These changes are dramatic, and I think will be problematic to accomodate, in terms of game balance.

[Graeme Dice]

Thufir said:
I third that. This forum is the worse for such immaturity.

I think Cainehill said exactly what needed to be said in this case.

1) Increase the penalty for being surrounded.

The penalty for being surrounded by size 2 units is currently a minimum of 18 defense points by the end of each turn. That's not small.

2) Add maintenance cost for summons. I'd also like to see a maintenance cost for Ritual spells with continuing affects.

I don't know why people have such a liking for this idea, as the very thing that makes the game worthwhile is that magic is actually powerful, unlike the vast majority of fantasy games.

[Arryn]

Graeme Dice said:
I think Cainehill said exactly what needed to be said in this case.

Agreed.

Graeme Dice said:
I don't know why people have such a liking for this idea, as the very thing that makes the game worthwhile is that magic is actually powerful, unlike the vast majority of fantasy games.

Because a very vocal minority of players, whose names we're quite familiar with, want to turn Dominions into just another in that vast sea of mediocre games.

Furthermore, Johan has already categorically stated IW's official view on the subject, yet this same vocal (dense/oblivious) minority continue to beat their drum hoping to either deafen or tire the rest of us into submission to their whims. Newsflash: won't happen.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Agreed.

Because a very vocal minority of players, whose names we're quite familiar with, want to turn Dominions into just another in that vast sea of mediocre games.

Furthermore, Johan has already categorically stated IW's official view on the subject, yet this same vocal (dense/oblivious) minority continue to beat their drum hoping to either deafen or tire the rest of us into submission to their whims. Newsflash: won't happen.

arryn how can exactly you say this ?
you play mainly sp and you like jotunheim which is one of the few nations which has half useful national troops .


i remember that norfleet always wanted to invite you to mp-games and he seemed to never succeed .
so unless you played now many mp-games of dominions 2 since the about 3 weeks since norfleet is gone for you such statings are sorry to say that almost unqualified .

in sp you can win by almost everything so there the balance issue doesn't become obvious .

edit : furthermore i think it was you who always said dominions 2 is a worthy successor to master of magic .
since in master of magic you had upkeep for your summons so why do you like this in dominions then that there is no upkeep ?

[deccan]

Arryn said:

Because a very vocal minority of players, whose names we're quite familiar with, want to turn Dominions into just another in that vast sea of mediocre games.

*Shrug* It's just a matter of personal taste and preference. I might as well complain why so many people buy David Eddings crap when they could be reading George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire".

Arryn said:
Furthermore, Johan has already categorically stated IW's official view on the subject, yet this same vocal (dense/oblivious) minority continue to beat their drum hoping to either deafen or tire the rest of us into submission to their whims. Newsflash: won't happen.

Yes, it won't happen. Not for this game. But I wouldn't want it to either. I happen to like Dom2 the way it is now, but occasionally, I'd like to play another fantasy strategy game that puts more emphasis on regular soldiers and less emphasis on all-out magic as well. I want that other game not as a replacement to Dom2 but as an addition to it.