Poll: morale and routing

[Arryn]

Boron said:
cohen though is an expert

Most assuredly NOT! There's about a half-dozen names that come to my mind, and he's not only not on that short list, but not even in the top 20. My advice is to find better role-models than you've been quoting for the past few days.

Boron said:
it is just unfair as it is that you have to pay no upkeep for your summons .

Unfair? How?

Boron said:
since especially starcraft is such a good example how attractive (almost) perfect balance is

If ever there's a case for a meaningless comparison between vastly dissimilar things, this is one of them. You cannot draw any sort of valid comparison between Dom 2 and Starcraft, other than that they are both computer games, and that they both involve some element of strategy in playing. The similarities end there.

Boron said:
and i don't see any point which would make scs useless when they cost upkeep i wonder why my ideas meet so much dislike .

Several people have tried, repeatedly, to explain this to you -- including one of the game developers -- to no avail. You just are not listening to what they are saying. You are too busy arguing your own point.

Boron said:
but since scs are overpowered

Not true. And this has been hashed out and beaten to death in quite a few threads. But you (and others) refuse to be swayed from your firm beliefs, in spite of the detailed explanations you've been given by various people as to why you're mistaken. Yet you continue to harp on this, and then some folks take offense when I use the term "whine" to describe such irrational behavior.

Boron said:
in starcraft i can play

Would you please, please quit comparing Dom 2 to SC? It's not only a bogus comparison, it's also getting quite annoying. Dom 2 isn't SC. Get over it. Or go play SC.

Boron said:
if i would like e.g. atlantis or tien chi ( base + barbarian kings ) i am forced to play them in sp only .
if i want to play them in mp it is like i voluntary handicap myself .

That's your own lack of experience showing. Zen had no such problems. I know this firsthand. Please don't cite your own shortcomings as any sort of reason to change the game.

[Boron]

and you are to busy to see the obvious i could say too arryn .

zen as an example for he had no problems with atlantis is a brilliant idea too .

first zen is gone from dominions probably forever .
second zen and norfleet were always handled as the most experienced dominions 2 players .
since norfleet cheated probably zen was .


and why can't i compare starcraft with dominions ?
starcraft is the best example that comes to my mind to show how really good balance should work expect chess .



a big factor maybe since i am still quite new to the community as panther e.g. is too you just say i am still to inexperienced .

if zen would have said what i said probably not as many ppl would have argued against me i guess .

and zen always said water is too weak .



but how can't you find it unfair that a summon costs no upkeep while a national unit does ?
furthermore the rule no upkeep for summons is not strict :
trolls cost upkeep .


so if you were an arch demon wouldn't you complain to have to work for no MONTHLY WAGE at all while a lousy knight gets a quite high wage of several gold ?!?
in most fantasy worlds like dsa or ad&d especially the evil mighty creatures ( monsters like dragons , demons ) demand continious new tributes to keep them working for you .
in dominions a poor arch demon doesn't get even a lousy blood slave / turn as payment .

this is nothing but unfair !

[Arryn]

Boron said:
this is nothing but unfair !

Continued whining isn't going to change anything

BTW, Zen and Norfleet may both be gone, but I'm confident that they *both* would have disagreed with you, however much they tended to disagree with each other. Regardless, since they're not here, and you need someone to listen to, why not Johan, the ultimate arbiter of the game? And he has already spoken. You just aren't listening. As Gandalf has politely pointed out in his carefully-phrased post.

[Huzurdaddi]

i have made so many arguments now why there should be upkeep cost for summons .

As I have said before: your "fix" would simply reduce the number of summoned troops and those gems would go into heavily equpped SC's.

Summoned troops are not a problem in dominions2. Heck you don't see that many of them going around ( other than a notable few ).

As far as I can see the mad dash for SC's is done by the same people thinking the same way. Or some more experienced people who know they are playing with people who will try to fight fire with fire). The fix for SC's is often in the units that those people consider "worthless"

I really doubt that the direct solution to SC's is with units that are considered "worthless". I would love to hear of an example.

I have seen lower end SC's killed by normal units ( Banelords in particular can often be killed by elite units 'en mass). However higher end SC's ( ice devils for example ) simply can not be killed by normal units. One equipped ice devil using no artifacts can kill an unlimited number of devils. I can't think of any more combat capable unit than devils.

Heck one specifically equipped Wraith Lord ( again with tech 6 and below items ) can also take on any number of devils number of devils.

I have no problem with an SC with a couple of artifacts taking a nigh-infinite number of units, that is very thematic. But one powerful summon equipped with "run of the mill" ( ie: not the types of items that books are about ) taking on any number of troops is not thematic.

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
second zen and norfleet were always handled as the most experienced dominions 2 players .
since norfleet cheated probably zen was .

And here I was thinking I should express regret for the way I expressed myself, if not for the content of my previous post.

You're now say that Zen probably cheated, because Norfleet did. I really didn't express myself emphatically enough, in retrospect.

and why can't i compare starcraft with dominions ?
starcraft is the best example that comes to my mind to show how really good balance should work expect chess .

You really just don't get it. Starcraft had a _very_ limitted number of troops, for each of 3 sides. That made it possible for Blizzard to balance each unit against the other units. It also made for a totally different game, in that there _aren't_ any particularly clever, ingenious tactics and strategies for the game - no one spends hours dreaming up neat things to try in Starcraft.

It's a great RTS - but it isn't in any way possible to compare the two, except for that "Well, they're both computer games". RTS vice turn-based, limitted units vice over 1000 unit types, not to mention that fact that the random nature of magic sites, "special" independents, and the like mean that no two games of Dom2 play alike.

And to bring up chess as an example of balanced illustrates your cluelessness even more.

if zen would have said what i said probably not as many ppl would have argued against me i guess .

If Zen had made stupid statements and arguments, people would have argued against him just as much. But Zen didn't tend to write idiocy.

but how can't you find it unfair that a summon costs no upkeep while a national unit does ?
furthermore the rule no upkeep for summons is not strict :
trolls cost upkeep .

I don't think this word 'unfair' means what you think it does. If one player didn't have to pay upkeep, while another player _did_ have to pay upkeep, this would be 'unfair'. Since everyone has the same conditions, it's perfectly fair, except for when someone _cheats_.

so if you were an arch demon wouldn't you complain to have to work for no MONTHLY WAGE at all while a lousy knight gets a quite high wage of several gold ?!?
in most fantasy worlds like dsa or ad&d especially the evil mighty creatures ( monsters like dragons , demons ) demand continious new tributes to keep them working for you .
in dominions a poor arch demon doesn't get even a lousy blood slave / turn as payment .

this is nothing but unfair !

This is nothing but drivel, actually. Dom2 isn't AD&D, it isn't Starcraft, it isn't chess.

And even _IN_ AD&D, demons worked for squat, didly, nada, nothing. Or perhaps you've forgotten all those monster summoning spells, that conjured forth goblins, imps, even cacodemons, to fight and die for the mage for NO PAY AT ALL. They're compelled by the magic.

Oh - you want unfair, in Dom2? How about the fact that you can have blind units with no arms, and you still have to PAY them.

Feh. I'm so glad you think you've put forth some of your "best and most convincing arguments"; you're truly casting pearls before swine. I'm sure that it's just that many of us, including the developers, simply can't comprehend your brilliance, unlike the 'experts' like Cohen and Tauren. Thank you for attempting to enlighten us, but we're not worthy.

[Boron]

Cainehill said:

And here I was thinking I should express regret for the way I expressed myself, if not for the content of my previous post.

You're now say that Zen probably cheated, because Norfleet did. I really didn't express myself emphatically enough, in retrospect.

thnx for quoting out of context and doing misinformation .

i said since norfleet was cheating probably zen was the best dominions player present here on the board by public opinion .


really good way to cut the rest of my post out and giving my praise for zen by this way a totally other context .

[Arryn]

Cainehill said:

You're now say that Zen probably cheated, because Norfleet did. I really didn't express myself emphatically enough, in retrospect.

You've misread what he said, although that's not surprising since Boron habitually excludes punctuation and capitalization, plus you're more than a bit peeved at him and thus prone to jumping a tad too quick. What he said was that both were considered "experts", but since Norfy cheated, Norfy being an expert is called into question, leaving Zen as the true expert.

Of course, there are various others here that I consider experts, all of whom have disagreed with Boron, but he's chosen to ignore their Posts and reply just to yours and mine. Odd behavior, but not entirely unexpected.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well I think there are some experts there. They are experts in one style of play. I dont mind that discussion as long as they arent trying to change the entire game based on one style.

I think StarCraft is a very bad comparison for balance. Its a unit-to-unit balance which is fair and supports tournament ladders nicely. Id much rather that Dom2 maintain a paper-rock-scissors balance at national level. Yes it makes tournament ladders difficult but there are plenty of those games out there already.